3 ms·

Cats, being obligate carnivores and lacking a proper mechanism for extracting energy out of fatty acids (e.g. ketogenesis in humans), have actually very efficie

Cats, being obligate carnivores and lacking a proper mechanism for extracting energy out of fatty acids (e.g. ketogenesis in humans), have actually very efficient kidneys to dispose of all the nitrogen coming from their protein-exclusive metabolism. Domestic cats are at risk, but that is more a result of domestication and improper feeding (carbohydrate) than evolution or genetics. Unless I am missing something, of course! Care to elaborate?

johnkpaul 7y ago
Whenever I see comments blaming carbohydrate intake for large swaths of problems I find it challenging because I agree and then feel that I am seen as a heretic or extremely gullible. Do you ever feel that way?
- DennisP 7y ago
  I doubt anyone would think you a heretic for believing that about pure carnivores like cats.
  - glastra 7y ago
    I guess he was extrapolating and referring to the idea that carbohydrate consumption is the root cause of most, if not all, modern diseases. An idea held by many, including me.
    - smolder 7y ago
      To say even most modern disease has to do with carb intake ignores all the diseases that clearly aren't even diet related. You could probably get away with saying most diet related diseases are related to carb intake. I'd say that's a stretch, too, though I do suspect, as you do, that the type and quantity of carbs people eat is underappreciated as a factor in many illnesses.
      - glastra 7y ago
        Yes, absolutely. Some diseases are due to pathogens and such. But those should not be "modern", in the sense that said pathogens might not be exactly new. Maybe you could say anthropogenic diseases such as lung cancer from smoking or esophagus cancer from drinking are modern, though. What I meant by "modern diseases" in my comment is a group of non-communicable diseases or so-called "diseases of civilization". "Diet-related" is rather ambiguous, so different lines might be drawn there. As an example, would you say Alzheimer's is a diet-related disease? What about melanoma and/or sunburn?
        smolder 7y ago
        Ah I either missed or misunderstood the use of "modern" there. I can't speak to the relationship between diet and melanoma or Alzheimer's, but I understand your point.
    - fpoling 7y ago
      In Mongolia in rural areas people eat just meat. Dearth from heart decease and liver cancers are leading causes of dearth there. On the other hand, life expectancy in Mongolia is 70 years, while in mostly vegetarian India it is 69.5. Just from that one can easily see that blaming one particular food group is not productive.
      - glastra 7y ago
        Yes, they eat just meat, but smoking prevalence is over 50% [0], and alcoholism is rampant [1]. Bad example, to be honest. In fact, liver cancer can be directly attributed to drinking. A life expectancy of 70 years under such conditions is actually astonishing. [0]: https://www.who.int/tobacco/media/en/Mongolia.pdf https://www.who.int/tobacco/media/en/Mongolia.pdf [1]: https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112485545?storyId=112485545&t=1564037250127 https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112485...
- glastra 7y ago
  Yes. I don't usually express my opinions on nutrition, metabolism and/or health in general in the open, because I know they go against what is currently mainstream and they would be met (as elsewhere in this submission) with extreme resistance. I can't blame the others, though, as I once was in their same position and know how it feels when deeply ingrained ideas are challenged from the outside. I have learned to live without the need to be "right", or to educate others when they don't want to be. It is enough for me to apply what knowledge and intuition I have gained over the last years for my own health and well-being. If, at some point, someone wants me to share that knowledge, then I will gladly do it.
  - johnkpaul 7y ago
    Thank you for this. This is very helpful both practically and emotionally. I also try not to say a word about my beliefs. That was much easier before having children who are offered carbohydrates constantly.
    - glastra 7y ago
      You're very welcome. Even though I have no children, I can try to imagine what it feels like. My paternal grandfather died of complications from uncontrolled, insulin-dependent type 2 diabetes. He spent his last years half-blind, unable to move, filled with ulcers and missing several toes. My father has been hovering around the prediabetic range for many years now, and I live a 5-hour drive away from him. Effectively, he is like a child, with no knowledge of nutrition or metabolism, trying to find his way in a world dominated by a food industry that doesn't have public health anywhere in its objectives. But it's not just the food industry, although they might have the monopoly of malice in this context. Guess what the diet prescribed by his primary care provider looked like once he was deemed prediabetic. Motherfucking biscuits for breakfast, pasta or rice with lean meat, sugar-laden fruit juice... but counting calories! Exactly the opposite of what I have finally convinced him to eat by chipping away on every holiday visit. He's not exactly following a ketogenic diet, but at least he is starting to figure out what sugar, starch and seed oils do to people, and how the blame was shifted onto the wrong substances (saturated fat and salt, basically). He is even giving intermittent fasting a go! It's hard when you know that the potential suffering of a loved one is perfectly avoidable with just the right pieces of information. As you might have guessed, having type 2 diabetes in my immediate ancestry (also in my maternal family) was one of the reasons that led me down the rabbit hole. I now treat nutrition and its effect on health and metabolism sort of like a hobby. I guess there is a component of biohacking in there as well.
- fpoling 7y ago
  “carbohydrate“ is extremely bad term in nutrition. There is fundamental difference between eating whole food plants like potatoes or drinking sugary drinks. Yet both are formally carbohydrates.
  - glastra 7y ago
    What do you think potato starch is metabolized into in your body? Starting in your mouth (salivary amylase).
    - fpoling 7y ago
      Potato is not just starch. In fact per calory potato is very dense nutritional wise with all that fiber, minerals and vitamins. In addition there is speed of absorption which for starches is much lower than for simple sugar. Plus starch metabolizes as glucose while table sugar and friends contains 50% fructose. Which points to an elephant in the room that people miss when use the term carbs. It is the similarity between whole-food plant-based and various forms of keto. They both avoids simple sugars and processed flour mixed with refined seed oils or saturated fats.
      - glastra 7y ago
        Bananas and dates (to name a few fruits) are plants, are whole foods, and are filled with fructose. A single potato with skin has 6 grams of fiber and around 60 grams of starch. As for the vitamins and minerals, the only thing found in a relevant amount in potatoes is potassium. Contrast this with eggs, organ meat or even muscle meat. What would you say is the problem with saturated fat? Also, out of curiosity, are you vegan?
        fpoling 7y ago
        Yes, I am vegan. As for saturated fat I have no idea what if any can be wrong with it from human health point of view. Literature and observational studies are contradictory and it all depends on the whole diet. But I do know from personal experience and from some hints from literature that mixing it or vegetable oil for that matter with highly processed starches or sugars is bad.
pietjepuk88 7y ago
I always thought it made sense that the improved efficiency comes at a cost. Our (human) kidneys are not as efficient, and we require a lot more water intake. Then again, we don't have as many kidney problems. This kind of argument certainly _feels_ right ("no free lunch"), but that does not necessarily make it so. I feel that repeated inbreeding can (but does not have to) cause issues like sensitive kidneys in cats, but it probably also has to do with domestic cats growing relatively old. Things like faulty kidneys (or thyroid issues, or diabetes) bound to show up eventually if cancer does not get them before age 10.

johnkpaul 7y ago

Whenever I see comments blaming carbohydrate intake for large swaths of problems I find it challenging because I agree and then feel that I am seen as a heretic or extremely gullible. Do you ever feel that way?

DennisP 7y ago
I doubt anyone would think you a heretic for believing that about pure carnivores like cats.
- glastra 7y ago
  I guess he was extrapolating and referring to the idea that carbohydrate consumption is the root cause of most, if not all, modern diseases. An idea held by many, including me.
  - smolder 7y ago
    To say even most modern disease has to do with carb intake ignores all the diseases that clearly aren't even diet related. You could probably get away with saying most diet related diseases are related to carb intake. I'd say that's a stretch, too, though I do suspect, as you do, that the type and quantity of carbs people eat is underappreciated as a factor in many illnesses.
    - glastra 7y ago
      Yes, absolutely. Some diseases are due to pathogens and such. But those should not be "modern", in the sense that said pathogens might not be exactly new. Maybe you could say anthropogenic diseases such as lung cancer from smoking or esophagus cancer from drinking are modern, though. What I meant by "modern diseases" in my comment is a group of non-communicable diseases or so-called "diseases of civilization". "Diet-related" is rather ambiguous, so different lines might be drawn there. As an example, would you say Alzheimer's is a diet-related disease? What about melanoma and/or sunburn?
      - smolder 7y ago
        Ah I either missed or misunderstood the use of "modern" there. I can't speak to the relationship between diet and melanoma or Alzheimer's, but I understand your point.
  - fpoling 7y ago
    In Mongolia in rural areas people eat just meat. Dearth from heart decease and liver cancers are leading causes of dearth there. On the other hand, life expectancy in Mongolia is 70 years, while in mostly vegetarian India it is 69.5. Just from that one can easily see that blaming one particular food group is not productive.
    - glastra 7y ago
      Yes, they eat just meat, but smoking prevalence is over 50% [0], and alcoholism is rampant [1]. Bad example, to be honest. In fact, liver cancer can be directly attributed to drinking. A life expectancy of 70 years under such conditions is actually astonishing. [0]: https://www.who.int/tobacco/media/en/Mongolia.pdf https://www.who.int/tobacco/media/en/Mongolia.pdf [1]: https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112485545?storyId=112485545&t=1564037250127 https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112485...
glastra 7y ago
Yes. I don't usually express my opinions on nutrition, metabolism and/or health in general in the open, because I know they go against what is currently mainstream and they would be met (as elsewhere in this submission) with extreme resistance. I can't blame the others, though, as I once was in their same position and know how it feels when deeply ingrained ideas are challenged from the outside. I have learned to live without the need to be "right", or to educate others when they don't want to be. It is enough for me to apply what knowledge and intuition I have gained over the last years for my own health and well-being. If, at some point, someone wants me to share that knowledge, then I will gladly do it.
- johnkpaul 7y ago
  Thank you for this. This is very helpful both practically and emotionally. I also try not to say a word about my beliefs. That was much easier before having children who are offered carbohydrates constantly.
  - glastra 7y ago
    You're very welcome. Even though I have no children, I can try to imagine what it feels like. My paternal grandfather died of complications from uncontrolled, insulin-dependent type 2 diabetes. He spent his last years half-blind, unable to move, filled with ulcers and missing several toes. My father has been hovering around the prediabetic range for many years now, and I live a 5-hour drive away from him. Effectively, he is like a child, with no knowledge of nutrition or metabolism, trying to find his way in a world dominated by a food industry that doesn't have public health anywhere in its objectives. But it's not just the food industry, although they might have the monopoly of malice in this context. Guess what the diet prescribed by his primary care provider looked like once he was deemed prediabetic. Motherfucking biscuits for breakfast, pasta or rice with lean meat, sugar-laden fruit juice... but counting calories! Exactly the opposite of what I have finally convinced him to eat by chipping away on every holiday visit. He's not exactly following a ketogenic diet, but at least he is starting to figure out what sugar, starch and seed oils do to people, and how the blame was shifted onto the wrong substances (saturated fat and salt, basically). He is even giving intermittent fasting a go! It's hard when you know that the potential suffering of a loved one is perfectly avoidable with just the right pieces of information. As you might have guessed, having type 2 diabetes in my immediate ancestry (also in my maternal family) was one of the reasons that led me down the rabbit hole. I now treat nutrition and its effect on health and metabolism sort of like a hobby. I guess there is a component of biohacking in there as well.
fpoling 7y ago
“carbohydrate“ is extremely bad term in nutrition. There is fundamental difference between eating whole food plants like potatoes or drinking sugary drinks. Yet both are formally carbohydrates.
- glastra 7y ago
  What do you think potato starch is metabolized into in your body? Starting in your mouth (salivary amylase).
  - fpoling 7y ago
    Potato is not just starch. In fact per calory potato is very dense nutritional wise with all that fiber, minerals and vitamins. In addition there is speed of absorption which for starches is much lower than for simple sugar. Plus starch metabolizes as glucose while table sugar and friends contains 50% fructose. Which points to an elephant in the room that people miss when use the term carbs. It is the similarity between whole-food plant-based and various forms of keto. They both avoids simple sugars and processed flour mixed with refined seed oils or saturated fats.
    - glastra 7y ago
      Bananas and dates (to name a few fruits) are plants, are whole foods, and are filled with fructose. A single potato with skin has 6 grams of fiber and around 60 grams of starch. As for the vitamins and minerals, the only thing found in a relevant amount in potatoes is potassium. Contrast this with eggs, organ meat or even muscle meat. What would you say is the problem with saturated fat? Also, out of curiosity, are you vegan?
      - fpoling 7y ago
        Yes, I am vegan. As for saturated fat I have no idea what if any can be wrong with it from human health point of view. Literature and observational studies are contradictory and it all depends on the whole diet. But I do know from personal experience and from some hints from literature that mixing it or vegetable oil for that matter with highly processed starches or sugars is bad.

pietjepuk88 7y ago

I always thought it made sense that the improved efficiency comes at a cost. Our (human) kidneys are not as efficient, and we require a lot more water intake. Then again, we don't have as many kidney problems. This kind of argument certainly _feels_ right ("no free lunch"), but that does not necessarily make it so. I feel that repeated inbreeding can (but does not have to) cause issues like sensitive kidneys in cats, but it probably also has to do with domestic cats growing relatively old. Things like faulty kidneys (or thyroid issues, or diabetes) bound to show up eventually if cancer does not get them before age 10.