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Interesting. How would you respond to an argument that the output of a ML model is transformative / fair use? Would your argument apply to this specific applica

by bdon 7y ago

Interesting. How would you respond to an argument that the output of a ML model is transformative / fair use? Would your argument apply to this specific application, or to ML in general?

tofof 7y ago
Obviously the question of whether an ML model is adequately transformative is an unanswered one, at least as far as I'm aware, in any jurisdiction. However, in this specific case, I would expect most courts to place heavy weight on the clear, initial massive-scale infringment from the dataset alone to conclude that no good-faith effort (or, apparently, any effort at all) was made to avoid trampling these artists' rights. Such 'dirty hands' would potentially discredit any attempt to claim original creative expression, rather than commercialism, motivated the creation of this ML model. This represent very nearly the worst possible case to serve as a potential test case for the legality of ML techniques. Other datasets, like the Open Images Dataset (https://arxiv.org/abs/1811.00982 https://arxiv.org/abs/1811.00982) explicitly recognize and address this concern in their curation of included images.
- wbl 7y ago
  It's a standard part of artist training to copy paintings by hand, infringing copyright. Never to the best of my knowledge has this been used to argue that a picture with no visible elements of another infringes. If these infringe, where is the similarity?
  - tofof 7y ago
    True, and an interesting philosophical question. However, it is not a standard part of artist training to obtain and redistribute, without license, the (in this case millions) of paintings they studied. > Never to the best of my knowledge has this been used to argue that a picture with no visible elements of another infringes. One only needs to look as far back as 2013, in Williams v. Bridgeport Music, to find such a thing not merely argued, but successfully litigated. In this case, the estate of Marvin Gaye alleged that Robin Thicke's "Blurred Lines" copied the 'feel' and 'sound' of "Got to Give It Up" despite containing no samples or even an identical chord progression. Perhaps more surprising to you will be the fact that the court found in favor of Gaye's estate, i.e. that "Blurred Lines" was infringing! A not-insubstantial factor in reaching this decision was, as I alluded to above, the attitude of the defendant regarding the infringement. Thicke testified "No" when asked if he considered himself an honest person, and admitted that "Got to Give It Up" was a direct inspiration for the song. It would be difficult to argue that the data used to create your ML was anything BUT its explicit inspiration, and as I've mentioned in other posts, this is compounded by the fact that the acquiring the initial dataset is itself a separate and very clear-cut case of copyright infringement. In the interest of good discourse, do note that many legal scholars and industry experts were, admittedly, shocked by the decision and decry it as fundamentally mistaken. Nevertheless it is now certainly precedential caselaw.
  - Grue3 7y ago
    > If these infringe, where is the similarity? It would be quite interesting to compare the generated images with the dataset using a tineye-style image matcher. I wouldn't be surprised if large segments of the generated pictures are outright identical to some image from the dataset.

by bdon 7y ago

Interesting. How would you respond to an argument that the output of a ML model is transformative / fair use? Would your argument apply to this specific application, or to ML in general?

tofof 7y ago

Obviously the question of whether an ML model is adequately transformative is an unanswered one, at least as far as I'm aware, in any jurisdiction. However, in this specific case, I would expect most courts to place heavy weight on the clear, initial massive-scale infringment from the dataset alone to conclude that no good-faith effort (or, apparently, any effort at all) was made to avoid trampling these artists' rights. Such 'dirty hands' would potentially discredit any attempt to claim original creative expression, rather than commercialism, motivated the creation of this ML model. This represent very nearly the worst possible case to serve as a potential test case for the legality of ML techniques. Other datasets, like the Open Images Dataset (https://arxiv.org/abs/1811.00982 https://arxiv.org/abs/1811.00982) explicitly recognize and address this concern in their curation of included images.

wbl 7y ago
It's a standard part of artist training to copy paintings by hand, infringing copyright. Never to the best of my knowledge has this been used to argue that a picture with no visible elements of another infringes. If these infringe, where is the similarity?
- tofof 7y ago
  True, and an interesting philosophical question. However, it is not a standard part of artist training to obtain and redistribute, without license, the (in this case millions) of paintings they studied. > Never to the best of my knowledge has this been used to argue that a picture with no visible elements of another infringes. One only needs to look as far back as 2013, in Williams v. Bridgeport Music, to find such a thing not merely argued, but successfully litigated. In this case, the estate of Marvin Gaye alleged that Robin Thicke's "Blurred Lines" copied the 'feel' and 'sound' of "Got to Give It Up" despite containing no samples or even an identical chord progression. Perhaps more surprising to you will be the fact that the court found in favor of Gaye's estate, i.e. that "Blurred Lines" was infringing! A not-insubstantial factor in reaching this decision was, as I alluded to above, the attitude of the defendant regarding the infringement. Thicke testified "No" when asked if he considered himself an honest person, and admitted that "Got to Give It Up" was a direct inspiration for the song. It would be difficult to argue that the data used to create your ML was anything BUT its explicit inspiration, and as I've mentioned in other posts, this is compounded by the fact that the acquiring the initial dataset is itself a separate and very clear-cut case of copyright infringement. In the interest of good discourse, do note that many legal scholars and industry experts were, admittedly, shocked by the decision and decry it as fundamentally mistaken. Nevertheless it is now certainly precedential caselaw.
- Grue3 7y ago
  > If these infringe, where is the similarity? It would be quite interesting to compare the generated images with the dataset using a tineye-style image matcher. I wouldn't be surprised if large segments of the generated pictures are outright identical to some image from the dataset.