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Here’s a toilet puzzle for you: Why don’t toilets in Brazil flush as efficiently as those in the United States and Canada? In Brazil it’s pretty standard to hav

Here’s a toilet puzzle for you: Why don’t toilets in Brazil flush as efficiently as those in the United States and Canada? In Brazil it’s pretty standard to have a waste paper basket beside the toilet for throwing away toilet paper. Hotels and restaurants will have signs asking you to not flush toilet paper. In the USA and Canada nobody worries about flushing toilet paper. The answer to this question is not obvious. Even luxurious toilets in expensive hotels do not flush as nicely as in Canada/US. It’s not a cultural or environmental thing to not flush toilet paper —- toilets really do get clogged very easily and getting rid of the toilet paper might take multiple flushes. I’ve seen Brazilian toilets that pass a lot of water per flush but still don’t work well. My current theories are that either Brazil uses narrower diameter drain pipes or that they have a more elongated P-trap than in the US and Canada. Someday I hope to run into a master plumber who’s worked in both Brazil and North America to tell me what the difference is. EDIT: The Quora link below says that the same problem happens in Mexico because the Y-fitting under the toilet doesn’t have graceful curves compared to US fittings and/or the drain is not sufficiently vented, so the toilet water flows slower. Both of these also sound like plausible theories.

discordance 7y ago
This doesn't need a master plumber to answer the question. This occurs in a lot of the developing world. Older sewerage systems weren't designed to accommodate the stuff we flush down in the west. Aside from older toilets that don't have the water flow design of contemporary systems that were designed to accept paper + waste, blockages down stream effect the flow of toilets upstream.
- alister 7y ago
  No, even toilets in new buildings don’t flush well. I mentioned that I’ve seen toilets that pass a great deal of water—-more than is typical in the US and Canada—-and still can’t get rid of a bundle of toilet paper. Blockages downstream may or may not happen, but that’s irrelevant to my question because the toilets do flush, the water leaves immediately (implying that the drain pipe is clear and nothing is backed up from downstream), but the waste and paper don’t leave as quickly. The problem has to be something at or near the toilet. As I said, I suspect narrower drain pipes or deeper and longer P-traps.
  - C1sc0cat 7y ago
    That's interesting and you do wonder why these countries don't have better standards its not like work hasn't been done on this. I used to work in hydrodynamics R&D (BHRA / BHR Group) and I shared an office with an engineer who had a project to analyse the UK's toilet designs and come up with design guidance for more efficient designs. It was interesting to listen in on the call to the plumbing supplies company when he wanted to buy a couple of hundred toilets but instead of 200 of one type he wanted 2 of every model they had. I did look at Computer vison / ML for this project, to measure flushing efficieny - but it was to expensive
- throw0101a 7y ago
  > This occurs in a lot of the developing world. Older sewerage systems weren't designed to accommodate the stuff we flush down in the west. Also, building code inspections may or may not be as strictly enforced in these countries, so even newly built things may not work properly.
- BeeOnRope 7y ago
  It's not the just sewers though - because I've been to plenty of places that run on a private septic system serving a single building or a few buildings, and the rule is the same: no flushing the paper. I have been told it's because of smaller diameter pipes.
acomjean 7y ago
I saw the same thing in mexico. I suspect toilet paper (which basically dissolves in water in a pulp) isn't available. Oddly a google search leads to lots of discussion on this topic with no agreement. https://www.quora.com/Why-don%E2%80%99t-Mexicans-flush-their-toilet-paper https://www.quora.com/Why-don%E2%80%99t-Mexicans-flush-their...
chillacy 7y ago
Not just Brazil. Same story in South Korea (Seoul specifically I remember) and much of Thailand. My understanding is that the sewage infrastructure can't handle it. Those are fairly old cities, even if the building is new, it eventually drains into something that may be hundreds of years old.
- Camillo 7y ago
  It's not age that is the problem. You can flush the toilet paper in European cities older than Seoul.
- wiennat 7y ago
  Not only sewage infrastructure in Thailand cannot handle toilet paper well, toilet papers sold in Thailand also does not dissolve well in water.
- kijin 7y ago
  The sewers in Seoul are definitely not hundreds of years old; most of them were built after the Korean War. The subway authority in Seoul had some research done when they were preparing to get rid of wastebaskets in their public bathrooms a couple of years ago. They found that the plumbing infrastructure is more than capable of handling normal amounts of toilet paper, even in older stations. But clogs happen when the paper gets tangled up with wet wipes, feminine hygiene products, and miscellaneous items such as pens and phones (yes, phones!) that are either accidentally or deliberately dropped in the toilet. When the subway authority and other large institutions did eventually get rid of the wastebaskets (they're smelly nuisances at best and biohazard at worst), the change was accompanied by a massive awareness campaign to discourage throwing foreign objects in the toilet. Separate receptacles for feminine hygiene products were added to women's bathrooms. There were some hiccups at first, but I think the change has been well received for the most part. tl;dr: Paper is not the problem. A widespread habit of throwing foreign objects in the toilet is.
  - throw0101a 7y ago
    > feminine hygiene products Many restaurants in North American cities have reminders that these should be thrown in the trash. Then there's a co-worker's situation in his townhouse / condo development: some people, who are probably new immigrants don't know the rules of the road, have to be informed not to flush chicken carcasses down the toilet. Just put it in the green bin and it will be picked up with-in the week: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_bin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_bin
latchkey 7y ago
Why do people still use paper? Bum guns for the win.
- wiennat 7y ago
  you can freeze in instant if you use that in cold winter. (except you use Japanese washlet)
- novok 7y ago
  They still use toilet paper to dry the after effect. Yes some of them have driers, but usually it's not nearly enough to dry in time. No, wet underwear and pants is not a solution.
flukus 7y ago
I don't know about Brazil, but American toilets leave a lot to be desired too, in Australia plungers aren't common like they seem to be in America (apologies for BuzzFeed source): https://www.buzzfeed.com/bradesposito/youre-talkin-shit https://www.buzzfeed.com/bradesposito/youre-talkin-shit
- pmjordan 7y ago
  As a Central/Northern European I noticed the same thing when spending a few months in North America. Particularly the "low-flow" toilets in the US & Canada which seem to be considered an improvement(?) have a ludicrously small outflow.
- xxpor 7y ago
  I noticed my Australian roommate uses a ass-load (sorry) more toilet paper than I do. Since he's moved in we'll go through a 12 pack in less than 2 months. By myself that would take me at least a year to kill.
  - 24gttghh 7y ago
    Tell him to eat more fiber.
seventhtiger 7y ago
People don't realize how much maintenance sewers need. Technicians go spelunking all the time to unclog. It is a massive cost and it's further abused with things like "flushable" wipes which don't exist. Throwing toilet paper in a basket and taking it through the garbage route is a very sensible solution.
- clydethefrog 7y ago
  >[..] an enormous “fatberg” was discovered in the sewers under London. A hellish fifteen-ton lump of cooking fat, congealed with diapers, wet wipes, sanitary towels, and condoms. In videos taken by sewer workers the thing crawls over the walls and ceilings of the grand Victorian drain, its tendrils puffing out from the monumental central mass. A mound of fat the size of a London bus, glistening death-pale in the torchlight; fungal, a saprophage, its terrible bulk blocking off the normal hygienic flows of piss and shit. It took three weeks for the utility company Thames Water to fully repair the drains. https://thebaffler.com/the-horrordome/the-fatberg-returns https://thebaffler.com/the-horrordome/the-fatberg-returns
  - labawi 7y ago
    Notice no mention of toilet paper. Normal western toilet paper nearly dissolves when wet.
- kartan 7y ago
  > People don't realize how much maintenance sewers need. What can do about it? I think that education is at fault. Most people in big cities does not realize how costly and important are jobs like sewer maintenance, garbage collectors, signal maintenance, gardeners, etc. Without all this work cities will paralyze, the population will get sick or die, transport will stop working. etc. Without that work civilization instead of flourishing with economic growth and technology it literally will crumble into ruin. Cities work because there is an absurdly large amount of people taking care of them. If it was a private endeavor there will be advertisements about their work everywhere. But, as a public service it is almost invisible. That is a shame.
odiroot 7y ago
It's the same all over Greece and parts of Italy.
- wastedhours 7y ago
  And other places in Eastern Europe too.
saiya-jin 7y ago
this issue with separate basket for used paper is valid for most of the 3rd world countries, be it asia or africa or south america
sanbor 7y ago
Toilet paper is also different from country to country. In Argentina most toilet paper is very thin, and as a result people uses a lot more. Maybe it is the same in Brazil.
- throw0101a 7y ago
  > In Argentina most toilet paper is very thin, and as a result people uses a lot more. This is no different than the false economy of single-ply in North America: you end up using the same mass (volume?), you just have to have more pulls. While not a topic I have quizzed many people on, I would hazard to guess that most folks want a certain thickness for their wipes. With two-ply you can achieve that with x revolutions of the roll, while with single-ply most people simply do 2x. I'm not quite sure if single-ply really saves anything. So for Argentina, are people really using more, or simply doing more pulls to reach the same thickness as the thicker-papered Americans?
  - sanbor 7y ago
    It's hard to say. First we have bidets in most households, so people uses lots of toilet paper to get dry after usage. Second, Argentina has a bad economy so people tends to go for the cheapest.

discordance 7y ago

This doesn't need a master plumber to answer the question. This occurs in a lot of the developing world. Older sewerage systems weren't designed to accommodate the stuff we flush down in the west. Aside from older toilets that don't have the water flow design of contemporary systems that were designed to accept paper + waste, blockages down stream effect the flow of toilets upstream.

alister 7y ago
No, even toilets in new buildings don’t flush well. I mentioned that I’ve seen toilets that pass a great deal of water—-more than is typical in the US and Canada—-and still can’t get rid of a bundle of toilet paper. Blockages downstream may or may not happen, but that’s irrelevant to my question because the toilets do flush, the water leaves immediately (implying that the drain pipe is clear and nothing is backed up from downstream), but the waste and paper don’t leave as quickly. The problem has to be something at or near the toilet. As I said, I suspect narrower drain pipes or deeper and longer P-traps.
- C1sc0cat 7y ago
  That's interesting and you do wonder why these countries don't have better standards its not like work hasn't been done on this. I used to work in hydrodynamics R&D (BHRA / BHR Group) and I shared an office with an engineer who had a project to analyse the UK's toilet designs and come up with design guidance for more efficient designs. It was interesting to listen in on the call to the plumbing supplies company when he wanted to buy a couple of hundred toilets but instead of 200 of one type he wanted 2 of every model they had. I did look at Computer vison / ML for this project, to measure flushing efficieny - but it was to expensive
throw0101a 7y ago
> This occurs in a lot of the developing world. Older sewerage systems weren't designed to accommodate the stuff we flush down in the west. Also, building code inspections may or may not be as strictly enforced in these countries, so even newly built things may not work properly.
BeeOnRope 7y ago
It's not the just sewers though - because I've been to plenty of places that run on a private septic system serving a single building or a few buildings, and the rule is the same: no flushing the paper. I have been told it's because of smaller diameter pipes.

acomjean 7y ago

I saw the same thing in mexico. I suspect toilet paper (which basically dissolves in water in a pulp) isn't available. Oddly a google search leads to lots of discussion on this topic with no agreement. https://www.quora.com/Why-don%E2%80%99t-Mexicans-flush-their-toilet-paper https://www.quora.com/Why-don%E2%80%99t-Mexicans-flush-their...

chillacy 7y ago

Not just Brazil. Same story in South Korea (Seoul specifically I remember) and much of Thailand. My understanding is that the sewage infrastructure can't handle it. Those are fairly old cities, even if the building is new, it eventually drains into something that may be hundreds of years old.

Camillo 7y ago
It's not age that is the problem. You can flush the toilet paper in European cities older than Seoul.
wiennat 7y ago
Not only sewage infrastructure in Thailand cannot handle toilet paper well, toilet papers sold in Thailand also does not dissolve well in water.
kijin 7y ago
The sewers in Seoul are definitely not hundreds of years old; most of them were built after the Korean War. The subway authority in Seoul had some research done when they were preparing to get rid of wastebaskets in their public bathrooms a couple of years ago. They found that the plumbing infrastructure is more than capable of handling normal amounts of toilet paper, even in older stations. But clogs happen when the paper gets tangled up with wet wipes, feminine hygiene products, and miscellaneous items such as pens and phones (yes, phones!) that are either accidentally or deliberately dropped in the toilet. When the subway authority and other large institutions did eventually get rid of the wastebaskets (they're smelly nuisances at best and biohazard at worst), the change was accompanied by a massive awareness campaign to discourage throwing foreign objects in the toilet. Separate receptacles for feminine hygiene products were added to women's bathrooms. There were some hiccups at first, but I think the change has been well received for the most part. tl;dr: Paper is not the problem. A widespread habit of throwing foreign objects in the toilet is.
- throw0101a 7y ago
  > feminine hygiene products Many restaurants in North American cities have reminders that these should be thrown in the trash. Then there's a co-worker's situation in his townhouse / condo development: some people, who are probably new immigrants don't know the rules of the road, have to be informed not to flush chicken carcasses down the toilet. Just put it in the green bin and it will be picked up with-in the week: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_bin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_bin

latchkey 7y ago

Why do people still use paper? Bum guns for the win.

wiennat 7y ago
you can freeze in instant if you use that in cold winter. (except you use Japanese washlet)
novok 7y ago
They still use toilet paper to dry the after effect. Yes some of them have driers, but usually it's not nearly enough to dry in time. No, wet underwear and pants is not a solution.

flukus 7y ago

I don't know about Brazil, but American toilets leave a lot to be desired too, in Australia plungers aren't common like they seem to be in America (apologies for BuzzFeed source): https://www.buzzfeed.com/bradesposito/youre-talkin-shit https://www.buzzfeed.com/bradesposito/youre-talkin-shit

pmjordan 7y ago
As a Central/Northern European I noticed the same thing when spending a few months in North America. Particularly the "low-flow" toilets in the US & Canada which seem to be considered an improvement(?) have a ludicrously small outflow.
xxpor 7y ago
I noticed my Australian roommate uses a ass-load (sorry) more toilet paper than I do. Since he's moved in we'll go through a 12 pack in less than 2 months. By myself that would take me at least a year to kill.
- 24gttghh 7y ago
  Tell him to eat more fiber.

seventhtiger 7y ago

People don't realize how much maintenance sewers need. Technicians go spelunking all the time to unclog. It is a massive cost and it's further abused with things like "flushable" wipes which don't exist. Throwing toilet paper in a basket and taking it through the garbage route is a very sensible solution.

clydethefrog 7y ago
>[..] an enormous “fatberg” was discovered in the sewers under London. A hellish fifteen-ton lump of cooking fat, congealed with diapers, wet wipes, sanitary towels, and condoms. In videos taken by sewer workers the thing crawls over the walls and ceilings of the grand Victorian drain, its tendrils puffing out from the monumental central mass. A mound of fat the size of a London bus, glistening death-pale in the torchlight; fungal, a saprophage, its terrible bulk blocking off the normal hygienic flows of piss and shit. It took three weeks for the utility company Thames Water to fully repair the drains. https://thebaffler.com/the-horrordome/the-fatberg-returns https://thebaffler.com/the-horrordome/the-fatberg-returns
- labawi 7y ago
  Notice no mention of toilet paper. Normal western toilet paper nearly dissolves when wet.
kartan 7y ago
> People don't realize how much maintenance sewers need. What can do about it? I think that education is at fault. Most people in big cities does not realize how costly and important are jobs like sewer maintenance, garbage collectors, signal maintenance, gardeners, etc. Without all this work cities will paralyze, the population will get sick or die, transport will stop working. etc. Without that work civilization instead of flourishing with economic growth and technology it literally will crumble into ruin. Cities work because there is an absurdly large amount of people taking care of them. If it was a private endeavor there will be advertisements about their work everywhere. But, as a public service it is almost invisible. That is a shame.

odiroot 7y ago

It's the same all over Greece and parts of Italy.

wastedhours 7y ago
And other places in Eastern Europe too.

saiya-jin 7y ago

this issue with separate basket for used paper is valid for most of the 3rd world countries, be it asia or africa or south america

sanbor 7y ago

Toilet paper is also different from country to country. In Argentina most toilet paper is very thin, and as a result people uses a lot more. Maybe it is the same in Brazil.

throw0101a 7y ago
> In Argentina most toilet paper is very thin, and as a result people uses a lot more. This is no different than the false economy of single-ply in North America: you end up using the same mass (volume?), you just have to have more pulls. While not a topic I have quizzed many people on, I would hazard to guess that most folks want a certain thickness for their wipes. With two-ply you can achieve that with x revolutions of the roll, while with single-ply most people simply do 2x. I'm not quite sure if single-ply really saves anything. So for Argentina, are people really using more, or simply doing more pulls to reach the same thickness as the thicker-papered Americans?
- sanbor 7y ago
  It's hard to say. First we have bidets in most households, so people uses lots of toilet paper to get dry after usage. Second, Argentina has a bad economy so people tends to go for the cheapest.