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I'm sorry to do this, but I disagree in spirit with just about every point that you've made. > it does some form of sex education when parents/school/society d

by xwkd 7y ago

I'm sorry to do this, but I disagree in spirit with just about every point that you've made. > it does some form of sex education when parents/school/society does none Education? Porn is "education?" Porn is to sex education as war movies are to combat training. > it lets people realize what sex is about (think about amateur categories and how you can see people not that different from you having sex and realizing that different shapes and sizes, all work) If I learn what "sex is about" through porn, then I haven't yet learned that sex can be intimate, or that it can result in babies. > it lets you explore your own sexuality (could you have immagine you would have liked that kind of things?) It seems limiting to "explore your sexuality" in the novelty of visual and auditory stimulation. Sort of one dimensional. What about touching, smells, or interaction with another person? > it lets you explore sexuality with your own partner (people get bored of the same sex every time, you know?) That seems like a two-way conversation (between you and your partner) becoming a three-way conversation where you include the ideas of the porn industry.

tomxor 7y ago
Apply your reasoning to other subjects and you are essentially saying fiction is a useless device to explore the world and yourself with... which I couldn't disagree with enough.
- xwkd 7y ago
  Well, it's a good thing that I never said that.
  - tomxor 7y ago
    Oh really, so why does the subject of sex not benefit from these qualities of fiction?
    - xwkd 7y ago
      I never said that it didn't.
      - tomxor 7y ago
        > [...] Porn is to sex education as war movies are to combat training. > If I learn what "sex is about" through porn [...] > It seems limiting to "explore your sexuality" in the novelty of visual and auditory stimulation [...] These arguments are all against the fictional nature of porn as a substitute for sex or sex education... which no one is suggesting, so it's a straw-man. Porn is not a replacement, it is both less and more, just like other fictions. The only time the OP suggested it as a replacement is where there is no alternative, which is perfectly reasonable. War films are not a substitute for combat training because they are not supposed to be. The remainder of this argument is for the value of fiction, which seems a little unnecessary.
        znpy 7y ago
        > The only time the OP suggested it as a replacement is where there is no alternative, which is perfectly reasonable. Thank you, you got my point. > War films are not a substitute for combat training because they are not supposed to be. The remainder of this argument is for the value of fiction, which seems a little unnecessary. War movies can depict war as something awesome as well as something awful. Needless to say, there are movies that depict war the former way and movies that depict war in the latter way. The very same way, there are many kinds ("genres") of porn that illustrate sexuality in many ways.
hprotagonist 7y ago
what about things like HUMP (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HUMP!_(film_festival) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HUMP!_(film_festival)) and the varieties of ethical porn initiatives?
- xwkd 7y ago
  My first question would be: Based on what set of ethics? What's the underpinning set of ethical philosophies? If you could give me a link to an answer, I would appreciate it.
  - hprotagonist 7y ago
    http://tristantaormino.com/ http://tristantaormino.com/ has written some books on this (and directed porn, so she’s speaking from practice here)
    - xwkd 7y ago
      > http://tristantaormino.com/about-tristan/curriculum-vitae/ http://tristantaormino.com/about-tristan/curriculum-vitae/ BOOKS 2011. Secrets to Great G-Spot Orgasms and Female Ejaculation. Minneapolis: Quiver Books. 2010. The Big Book of Sex Toys. Minneapolis: Quiver Books. 2009. The Anal Sex Positions Guide. Minneapolis: Quiver Books. 2008. Opening Up: A Guide to Creating and Sustaining Open Relationships. San Francisco: Cleis Press. 2006. The Ultimate Guide to Anal Sex for Women. 2nd Edition. San Francisco: Cleis Press. 2003. Down and Dirty Sex Secrets. New York: Regan Books. 2002. True Lust: Adventures in Sex, Porn and Perversion. San Francisco: Cleis Press. 2001. Pucker Up: A Hands-on Guide to Ecstatic Sex. New York: ReganBooks. 1997. The Ultimate Guide to Anal Sex for Women. San Francisco: Cleis Press. Not exactly what I was looking for. I was interested in ethical arguments. Thank you though.
ppseafield 7y ago
Of course porn isn't a real substitute for sexual education or exploring with another real human. But you appear to claim that it's practically useless because it doesn't provide everything. That's a false dichotomy: porn can be helpful in some ways, as the GP mentioned. > Porn is to sex education as war movies are to combat training. Right, but the options aren't only "war movie" or "real combat training". For some folks the options are porn or a vacuum of information. You can find plenty of regular, non-porn-actor folks having regular sex online. Are you saying this can't be valuable, especially when someone knows next to nothing about sex? To use your metaphor: as a young and untrained person, would you rather be dropped in the middle of a battlefield with no explanation, or would you rather have watched some videos of real combat first?
- xwkd 7y ago
  Thank you for following the Principle of Charity, (maybe better than I did.) Of course you can find good-old-fashioned amateur porn out there. It might even be useful! But, as you said, in a vacuum: It's now your mental model. Bob and Alice uploaded a porn video where Alice is on top, and now Chuck just knows that's how sex works. It wouldn't be so bad if Chuck went through the next few years of life thinking that. One day, he'll meet a girl and learn that sometimes the man is on top. But: You know what's out there on the front page of the most popular porn sites. Pornhub. Xhamster. Not exactly wholesome amateur love making.
  - ppseafield 7y ago
    You're right that solely having porn as your sexual guide can lead to some serious disappointment and confusion. I don't think anyone here was suggesting that, or that ALL porn can be informative. But this comment only shows one case where someone gets an only partially informed idea and takes it the wrong way (and only watches one video?). It doesn't address any of the other cases where it is helpful. Also: many of us enjoy more than "wholesome" love making, and porn can be a way of discovering things you never would have realized you enjoyed.
    - xwkd 7y ago

by xwkd 7y ago

tomxor 7y ago

Apply your reasoning to other subjects and you are essentially saying fiction is a useless device to explore the world and yourself with... which I couldn't disagree with enough.

xwkd 7y ago
Well, it's a good thing that I never said that.
- tomxor 7y ago
  Oh really, so why does the subject of sex not benefit from these qualities of fiction?
  - xwkd 7y ago
    I never said that it didn't.
    - tomxor 7y ago
      > [...] Porn is to sex education as war movies are to combat training. > If I learn what "sex is about" through porn [...] > It seems limiting to "explore your sexuality" in the novelty of visual and auditory stimulation [...] These arguments are all against the fictional nature of porn as a substitute for sex or sex education... which no one is suggesting, so it's a straw-man. Porn is not a replacement, it is both less and more, just like other fictions. The only time the OP suggested it as a replacement is where there is no alternative, which is perfectly reasonable. War films are not a substitute for combat training because they are not supposed to be. The remainder of this argument is for the value of fiction, which seems a little unnecessary.
      - znpy 7y ago
        > The only time the OP suggested it as a replacement is where there is no alternative, which is perfectly reasonable. Thank you, you got my point. > War films are not a substitute for combat training because they are not supposed to be. The remainder of this argument is for the value of fiction, which seems a little unnecessary. War movies can depict war as something awesome as well as something awful. Needless to say, there are movies that depict war the former way and movies that depict war in the latter way. The very same way, there are many kinds ("genres") of porn that illustrate sexuality in many ways.

hprotagonist 7y ago

what about things like HUMP (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HUMP!_(film_festival) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HUMP!_(film_festival)) and the varieties of ethical porn initiatives?

xwkd 7y ago
My first question would be: Based on what set of ethics? What's the underpinning set of ethical philosophies? If you could give me a link to an answer, I would appreciate it.
- hprotagonist 7y ago
  http://tristantaormino.com/ http://tristantaormino.com/ has written some books on this (and directed porn, so she’s speaking from practice here)
  - xwkd 7y ago
    > http://tristantaormino.com/about-tristan/curriculum-vitae/ http://tristantaormino.com/about-tristan/curriculum-vitae/ BOOKS 2011. Secrets to Great G-Spot Orgasms and Female Ejaculation. Minneapolis: Quiver Books. 2010. The Big Book of Sex Toys. Minneapolis: Quiver Books. 2009. The Anal Sex Positions Guide. Minneapolis: Quiver Books. 2008. Opening Up: A Guide to Creating and Sustaining Open Relationships. San Francisco: Cleis Press. 2006. The Ultimate Guide to Anal Sex for Women. 2nd Edition. San Francisco: Cleis Press. 2003. Down and Dirty Sex Secrets. New York: Regan Books. 2002. True Lust: Adventures in Sex, Porn and Perversion. San Francisco: Cleis Press. 2001. Pucker Up: A Hands-on Guide to Ecstatic Sex. New York: ReganBooks. 1997. The Ultimate Guide to Anal Sex for Women. San Francisco: Cleis Press. Not exactly what I was looking for. I was interested in ethical arguments. Thank you though.

ppseafield 7y ago

Of course porn isn't a real substitute for sexual education or exploring with another real human. But you appear to claim that it's practically useless because it doesn't provide everything. That's a false dichotomy: porn can be helpful in some ways, as the GP mentioned. > Porn is to sex education as war movies are to combat training. Right, but the options aren't only "war movie" or "real combat training". For some folks the options are porn or a vacuum of information. You can find plenty of regular, non-porn-actor folks having regular sex online. Are you saying this can't be valuable, especially when someone knows next to nothing about sex? To use your metaphor: as a young and untrained person, would you rather be dropped in the middle of a battlefield with no explanation, or would you rather have watched some videos of real combat first?

xwkd 7y ago
Thank you for following the Principle of Charity, (maybe better than I did.) Of course you can find good-old-fashioned amateur porn out there. It might even be useful! But, as you said, in a vacuum: It's now your mental model. Bob and Alice uploaded a porn video where Alice is on top, and now Chuck just knows that's how sex works. It wouldn't be so bad if Chuck went through the next few years of life thinking that. One day, he'll meet a girl and learn that sometimes the man is on top. But: You know what's out there on the front page of the most popular porn sites. Pornhub. Xhamster. Not exactly wholesome amateur love making.
- ppseafield 7y ago
  You're right that solely having porn as your sexual guide can lead to some serious disappointment and confusion. I don't think anyone here was suggesting that, or that ALL porn can be informative. But this comment only shows one case where someone gets an only partially informed idea and takes it the wrong way (and only watches one video?). It doesn't address any of the other cases where it is helpful. Also: many of us enjoy more than "wholesome" love making, and porn can be a way of discovering things you never would have realized you enjoyed.
  - xwkd 7y ago