6 ms·

Don't give coding quizzes if they can provide better evidence of their ability. It's unfair in the least, rude at the worst to pigeon-hole "senior" programmers

Don't give coding quizzes if they can provide better evidence of their ability. It's unfair in the least, rude at the worst to pigeon-hole "senior" programmers into scenarios / pop quizzes. Let them show off recent personal projects. They'll probably have no problem spending a weekend hacking on something they're passionate about. Be a serious employer: Convince the best programmers (whatever that means) why they should reorganize their life around your business: - Pension plans / job security are nice. It's a good motivator to know that there will be an annuity when they're 60 / 65 and would rather spend time with their family. - Union contract (or something comparable) or a labor system with robust employee rights and unemployment insurance. It's pretty unfair in the US with at-will employment. - Have strong financials. Be a business that'll be around in 10 years. Can your business keep paying employees if it's in the red for a year? If you don't offer the above: Why feel deserving of the best? I'm being facetious on the above points: It's tech, it's a fast cycle and inherently unstable. But when orgs talk about hiring - it irks me to see the entitlement employers have when they have little investment in the welfare of employees as persons (and families)

davidw 7y ago
None of these things are perfect - I agree with you about quizzes and the like. > Let them show off recent personal projects. They'll probably have no problem spending a weekend hacking on something they're passionate about. Nope. Not spending my weekend fooling around to impress some potential employer. I'm going to spend it with my kids, riding my bike, and enjoying life.
- knd775 7y ago
  As long as it's not a requirement or expected, I think it's fine. If someone has side projects they're proud of, I think it would be helpful to both parties for them to be brought up.
  - davidw 7y ago
    Oh, sure; side projects that people have worked on for fun over the years are a good thing to have and should be a potential avenue to show off one's abilities.
- enraged_camel 7y ago
  >> Nope. Not spending my weekend fooling around to impress some potential employer. I'm going to spend it with my kids, riding my bike, and enjoying life. Okay, it is time for some harsh love. You won't like it, and I'll get downvotes, but whatever. It needs to be said. My parents are both doctors, and they are in their 60s now. And you know what? They still work their asses off, on many evenings and weekends, trying to stay up-to-date with new developments in their respective fields. My dad just got back from an ophthalmology conference in Europe. My mom is a guest speaker at a pathology conference and she has been preparing furiously. And it has been like this _all my life_. So yeah, I detest this sense of entitlement that programmers have, where they want to a) get paid a lot and b) have lots of free time on the side. How about this instead: if you want to have a high salary, then it is reasonable for people to expect you to make certain sacrifices, such as work on your own projects on the side experimenting with new technologies and ideas. Don't like it? Well, it may be time to pick another profession...
  - chrismatheson 7y ago
    Technology’s main usage/promise is to make us all more efficient and rid us of the dependency on pure time & effort for outcomes. It’s like the definition of work smart not hard. Personally I think this is why you see a ton of people who live and breath tech think in terms of low time, high impact. High impact should equal high compensation.
  - themarkn 7y ago
    I’m not sure that the lesson to be learned from the medical profession’s overburdening of its professionals is that other well paid industries should follow suit and overburden their own professionals.
    - CompanionCuuube 7y ago
      Is the medical profession unique in that way? Do lawyers not need to keep up with existing legislation and case law? I know research scientists that use alerting tools for getting notified about publications covering their subject.
cwbrandsma 7y ago
There is a big difference between joining a startup in growth phases vs an existing player. * Startups have less with financials, but more with growth. Stock options are a big deal, as you are betting on that growing. It is a gamble, but it can pay off...or go no where. * Existing players need the 401k with matching and other incentives. There is often very little growth there, you need the long term investments. But I really have no idea why I need a union contract. Dealing with HR is bad enough, now we have to throw in another dump-ass manager into the mix?
quietbritishjim 7y ago
> They'll probably have no problem spending a weekend hacking on something they're passionate about. I would much rather a coding quiz than be asked to do something in my own time. It is already enough of an imposition on my time to go to the actual interview, without there being homework too. Being expected to have already done side projects is even worse; it effectively punishes me for spending too much of my attention on my employer. Asking senior devs to write simple code in an interview is, I would say, distasteful but necessary. Some "senior" devs don't seem to be able to code at all. (That's why the fizz buzz challenge was created; it was never aimed at junior devs.) Of course more advanced challenges might end in a trick that you might not notice in an interview, or you might even make silly mistakes. But that's all OK so long as there is sufficient understanding of that by the interviewer, and so long as (this is really key) there is enough discussion about your thought process. Edit: I just re-read your post and realised you're just asking for the option of showing off a side project, rather than it being compulsory. That's definitely not so bad but it still seems a bit unfair on those of us that don't have time for it.
- devNC 7y ago
  I rather spend 4 hours doing a project where I can demonstrate my value (architecture, clean code, design patterns, etc) than spending the same 4 hours solving questions on a whiteboard. Hell, most of the value I bring as a senior is well outside the realm of coding.
  - flukus 7y ago
    I'd maybe do one project like this for a top tier company, but most companies that do this are limiting themselves to the already unemployed who have the time, if you want to pull people from other companies you need to minimize their time investment. Remember it's not just a 4 hour project, it's 4 hours * the number of companies applied to. I'd also argue that you can't show off things like architecture and design patterns in such a short project, all you can show is that you're over engineering. I've also been burned before, getting dinged for "not practicing TDD because the tests and fixes are in the same commit", there can be just as much arbitrary BS as a simple short code test.
aantix 7y ago
Union? If you’re one of the best, why would you want to be equalized with your peers? No way I would want this. Why is it my problem that some introverted programmer can’t get themselves together enough to throw together a portfolio, some OSS contributions and ask for what they’re worth?
- 40acres 7y ago
  A major issue with the labor movement in America is that folks only join a union when they are weak and/or threatened by bosses. The best time to negotiate is when you're strong, it amazes me that big tech was caught colluding to depress wages and nothing occurred in terms of a labor movement. Many industry wide issues could be addressed through collective bargaining: age discrimination, training material, a strong voice to counter tiered voting shares (cough Facebook), guaranteed ergonomic tools, the list goes on.
  - aantix 7y ago
    But if you’re one of the best, oss contributions, speaking engagements, you have plenty of leverage. No need for the collective power, you set your own individual terms. None of the items you have listed are enticing enough for me to forego 30% so that the collective are equalized. I am my own responsibility. You are your own.
- pjmlp 7y ago
  Because outside US, unions are not about only salaries, rather about being treated as human being while at work. And it may be surprising to US mentality, that they are for all people on the company, from the janitor to the 10x coder that is now recovering from an accident, instead of trying to sue someone to get some income back.
lobotryas 7y ago
Except the “have them show off personal projects” route can be discriminatory. At least by giving people standard questions/puzzles your team (hopefully) determined as being relevant you are giving everyone the same chance at success.
- ghostpepper 7y ago
  I think it's important to clarify what you mean by "discriminatory". I think many people equate that term with "criminal" and I'm not sure if that's what you meant to imply. After all, to discriminate can also mean to accurately select the good programmers from among the bad. The law (which varies by country) says which things you are not allowed to discriminate based on, but after that it's up to the employer, is it not?
shados 7y ago
My own experience as well as discussing with various leads at other local businesses tell me about 50% of candidate will hard pass take home projects.
- hn_throwaway_99 7y ago
  Well, it just depends on whether those 50% that take a hard pass are more or less likely to be quality candidates in the first place.
- walshemj 7y ago
  And that's not counting one the ones who didn't apply
milofeynman 7y ago
This drives me crazy. I gave "you" my GitHub with a variety of open source contributions, but instead of looking at it you wait until you've flown me in to give me a timed coding puzzle on an unfamiliar laptop.
- linuxftw 7y ago
  Pretty much how facebook hires. Except there's no laptop, just a whiteboard a bunch of weirdos judging you for not being a total freek-looking weirdo.

davidw 7y ago

None of these things are perfect - I agree with you about quizzes and the like. > Let them show off recent personal projects. They'll probably have no problem spending a weekend hacking on something they're passionate about. Nope. Not spending my weekend fooling around to impress some potential employer. I'm going to spend it with my kids, riding my bike, and enjoying life.

knd775 7y ago
As long as it's not a requirement or expected, I think it's fine. If someone has side projects they're proud of, I think it would be helpful to both parties for them to be brought up.
- davidw 7y ago
  Oh, sure; side projects that people have worked on for fun over the years are a good thing to have and should be a potential avenue to show off one's abilities.
enraged_camel 7y ago
>> Nope. Not spending my weekend fooling around to impress some potential employer. I'm going to spend it with my kids, riding my bike, and enjoying life. Okay, it is time for some harsh love. You won't like it, and I'll get downvotes, but whatever. It needs to be said. My parents are both doctors, and they are in their 60s now. And you know what? They still work their asses off, on many evenings and weekends, trying to stay up-to-date with new developments in their respective fields. My dad just got back from an ophthalmology conference in Europe. My mom is a guest speaker at a pathology conference and she has been preparing furiously. And it has been like this _all my life_. So yeah, I detest this sense of entitlement that programmers have, where they want to a) get paid a lot and b) have lots of free time on the side. How about this instead: if you want to have a high salary, then it is reasonable for people to expect you to make certain sacrifices, such as work on your own projects on the side experimenting with new technologies and ideas. Don't like it? Well, it may be time to pick another profession...
- chrismatheson 7y ago
  Technology’s main usage/promise is to make us all more efficient and rid us of the dependency on pure time & effort for outcomes. It’s like the definition of work smart not hard. Personally I think this is why you see a ton of people who live and breath tech think in terms of low time, high impact. High impact should equal high compensation.
- themarkn 7y ago
  I’m not sure that the lesson to be learned from the medical profession’s overburdening of its professionals is that other well paid industries should follow suit and overburden their own professionals.
  - CompanionCuuube 7y ago
    Is the medical profession unique in that way? Do lawyers not need to keep up with existing legislation and case law? I know research scientists that use alerting tools for getting notified about publications covering their subject.

cwbrandsma 7y ago

There is a big difference between joining a startup in growth phases vs an existing player. * Startups have less with financials, but more with growth. Stock options are a big deal, as you are betting on that growing. It is a gamble, but it can pay off...or go no where. * Existing players need the 401k with matching and other incentives. There is often very little growth there, you need the long term investments. But I really have no idea why I need a union contract. Dealing with HR is bad enough, now we have to throw in another dump-ass manager into the mix?

quietbritishjim 7y ago

> They'll probably have no problem spending a weekend hacking on something they're passionate about. I would much rather a coding quiz than be asked to do something in my own time. It is already enough of an imposition on my time to go to the actual interview, without there being homework too. Being expected to have already done side projects is even worse; it effectively punishes me for spending too much of my attention on my employer. Asking senior devs to write simple code in an interview is, I would say, distasteful but necessary. Some "senior" devs don't seem to be able to code at all. (That's why the fizz buzz challenge was created; it was never aimed at junior devs.) Of course more advanced challenges might end in a trick that you might not notice in an interview, or you might even make silly mistakes. But that's all OK so long as there is sufficient understanding of that by the interviewer, and so long as (this is really key) there is enough discussion about your thought process. Edit: I just re-read your post and realised you're just asking for the option of showing off a side project, rather than it being compulsory. That's definitely not so bad but it still seems a bit unfair on those of us that don't have time for it.

devNC 7y ago
I rather spend 4 hours doing a project where I can demonstrate my value (architecture, clean code, design patterns, etc) than spending the same 4 hours solving questions on a whiteboard. Hell, most of the value I bring as a senior is well outside the realm of coding.
- flukus 7y ago
  I'd maybe do one project like this for a top tier company, but most companies that do this are limiting themselves to the already unemployed who have the time, if you want to pull people from other companies you need to minimize their time investment. Remember it's not just a 4 hour project, it's 4 hours * the number of companies applied to. I'd also argue that you can't show off things like architecture and design patterns in such a short project, all you can show is that you're over engineering. I've also been burned before, getting dinged for "not practicing TDD because the tests and fixes are in the same commit", there can be just as much arbitrary BS as a simple short code test.

aantix 7y ago

Union? If you’re one of the best, why would you want to be equalized with your peers? No way I would want this. Why is it my problem that some introverted programmer can’t get themselves together enough to throw together a portfolio, some OSS contributions and ask for what they’re worth?

40acres 7y ago
A major issue with the labor movement in America is that folks only join a union when they are weak and/or threatened by bosses. The best time to negotiate is when you're strong, it amazes me that big tech was caught colluding to depress wages and nothing occurred in terms of a labor movement. Many industry wide issues could be addressed through collective bargaining: age discrimination, training material, a strong voice to counter tiered voting shares (cough Facebook), guaranteed ergonomic tools, the list goes on.
- aantix 7y ago
  But if you’re one of the best, oss contributions, speaking engagements, you have plenty of leverage. No need for the collective power, you set your own individual terms. None of the items you have listed are enticing enough for me to forego 30% so that the collective are equalized. I am my own responsibility. You are your own.
pjmlp 7y ago
Because outside US, unions are not about only salaries, rather about being treated as human being while at work. And it may be surprising to US mentality, that they are for all people on the company, from the janitor to the 10x coder that is now recovering from an accident, instead of trying to sue someone to get some income back.

lobotryas 7y ago

Except the “have them show off personal projects” route can be discriminatory. At least by giving people standard questions/puzzles your team (hopefully) determined as being relevant you are giving everyone the same chance at success.

ghostpepper 7y ago
I think it's important to clarify what you mean by "discriminatory". I think many people equate that term with "criminal" and I'm not sure if that's what you meant to imply. After all, to discriminate can also mean to accurately select the good programmers from among the bad. The law (which varies by country) says which things you are not allowed to discriminate based on, but after that it's up to the employer, is it not?

shados 7y ago

My own experience as well as discussing with various leads at other local businesses tell me about 50% of candidate will hard pass take home projects.

hn_throwaway_99 7y ago
Well, it just depends on whether those 50% that take a hard pass are more or less likely to be quality candidates in the first place.
walshemj 7y ago
And that's not counting one the ones who didn't apply

milofeynman 7y ago

This drives me crazy. I gave "you" my GitHub with a variety of open source contributions, but instead of looking at it you wait until you've flown me in to give me a timed coding puzzle on an unfamiliar laptop.

linuxftw 7y ago
Pretty much how facebook hires. Except there's no laptop, just a whiteboard a bunch of weirdos judging you for not being a total freek-looking weirdo.