4 ms·

Most academic literature attributes the complaints (which are inconsistent with each other and span ambassadors of some countries but not others), to a mass psy

Most academic literature attributes the complaints (which are inconsistent with each other and span ambassadors of some countries but not others), to a mass psychogenic event. You can find out more here: https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4603 https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4603

erentz 7y ago
And this is shaping up to be yet another case where doctors and researchers ignored what their patients were telling them and labelled an illness as psychogenic when it wasn't. Through history doctors have all too often assumed their current testing capabilities were perfect and there was nothing more to learn. Thus if a patient looks normal on tests of the day then they must be imagining the problem and they label it psychogenic. Then this can't be disproved until new technology or research reveals how wrong this label was. People should think about the amount of grief these people and others through history have suffered due to this.
- arkades 7y ago
  > And this is shaping up to be yet another case where doctors and researchers ignored what their patients were telling No, it’s a case where doctors and researchers disagreed with one another and continued gathering data to try and reach a more definitive conclusion. Who, exactly, do you think was doing the MRI studies on their brains and publishing it in JAMA?
  - erentz 7y ago
    I don’t really know what your point is. The fact that some researchers or doctors were more diligent, scientifically principled, and didn’t fall into the “no evidence yet == psychogenic” trap, does not free those that did from the criticism. Those that do label illnesses psychogenic without any evidence do harm to patients. They cause grief, delay or hinder access to further research, and so forth.
    - dmix 7y ago
      Doctors are very quick to find some reason it’s not their ‘fault’, meaning they can’t help. Anyone with a serious illness or who has spent a lot of time with doctors will be well aware of this. That’s pretty common in software too where we want to blame the users endpoint computer or browser cache or something. We never want it to be an actual bug in our software. But those are local problems, when you have multiple eyes (and variety of experts) looking at it and a major geopolitical implication, simple dismissal is less of a problem. But agreed this is something that all professionals should be aware of, fighting our natural instincts, and try not to be so lazy or dismissive, and ask the harder questions.
- david_draco 7y ago
  > Different people reported different symptoms. Most people did not report hearing any particular sounds. Of those who did, they said they heard very different sounds, and at different times and places. None of the sounds bore any similarity to sonic weapons. Only one person reported permanent hearing loss; and as nobody else did, we can safely assume that it was likely due to natural causes for that person. One reported a concussion with no apparent cause, but nobody else did either. So if we are looking for some external cause for these symptoms, we learn that it was probably not any one cause. It was a number of different causes, suggesting that these people were suffering from various unrelated problems. The point is that this event is inconsistent with any known diseases or injuries, including sonic devices, but completely consistent with other events of (self-reinforcing) mass hallucinations. No one is saying the affected have not suffered.
  - erentz 7y ago
    But isn’t this just saying: “we have no existing evidence or test today showing a physiological illness so therefore we are going to call it this other imagined thing for which we also can’t prove, yet which has been repeatedly disproven over history.” All illness have at some time been “inconsistent with any known diseases or injuries”, MS, epilepsy, CFS, etc. What’s more likely at this point. I think lack of evidence in medicine shouldn’t be used as evidence for “psychogenic illness.” Just as lack of evidence for something in physics shouldn’t be used as evidence for “god put it there.” Doctors should get used to saying “we don’t know what’s wrong with these people yet” instead of trying to force an answer where there currently isn’t one. It’s far more correct and much kinder.
  - pfisch 7y ago
    Show me an event that is conclusively psychogenic. At this point I feel like a psychogenic diagnosis is like attributing something to god/religion. When you say what the cause of something is the burden of proof is now on you to provide evidence of that.
tim333 7y ago
There's always the "US Intelligence thinks Russia may have microwaved US embassies" theory. I'm not sure mass psychogenic events cause the "sustained injury to widespread brain networks" noted in the Journal of the American Medical Association which I guess is academic literature. Looking at the wikipedia for mass psychogenic events they are noted for "symptoms that are transient and benign; symptoms with rapid onset and recovery" eg headaches and coughs not stuff like "one diplomat's hearing was damaged to the point that he now requires a hearing aid" (skeptoid article) or structural changes to the brain (telegraph article). There are a few DIYers making microwave guns on youtube but I don't think they point them at people much https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80kDn4vit_w&feature=youtu.be&t=450 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80kDn4vit_w&feature=youtu.be...

erentz 7y ago

And this is shaping up to be yet another case where doctors and researchers ignored what their patients were telling them and labelled an illness as psychogenic when it wasn't. Through history doctors have all too often assumed their current testing capabilities were perfect and there was nothing more to learn. Thus if a patient looks normal on tests of the day then they must be imagining the problem and they label it psychogenic. Then this can't be disproved until new technology or research reveals how wrong this label was. People should think about the amount of grief these people and others through history have suffered due to this.

arkades 7y ago
> And this is shaping up to be yet another case where doctors and researchers ignored what their patients were telling No, it’s a case where doctors and researchers disagreed with one another and continued gathering data to try and reach a more definitive conclusion. Who, exactly, do you think was doing the MRI studies on their brains and publishing it in JAMA?
- erentz 7y ago
  I don’t really know what your point is. The fact that some researchers or doctors were more diligent, scientifically principled, and didn’t fall into the “no evidence yet == psychogenic” trap, does not free those that did from the criticism. Those that do label illnesses psychogenic without any evidence do harm to patients. They cause grief, delay or hinder access to further research, and so forth.
  - dmix 7y ago
    Doctors are very quick to find some reason it’s not their ‘fault’, meaning they can’t help. Anyone with a serious illness or who has spent a lot of time with doctors will be well aware of this. That’s pretty common in software too where we want to blame the users endpoint computer or browser cache or something. We never want it to be an actual bug in our software. But those are local problems, when you have multiple eyes (and variety of experts) looking at it and a major geopolitical implication, simple dismissal is less of a problem. But agreed this is something that all professionals should be aware of, fighting our natural instincts, and try not to be so lazy or dismissive, and ask the harder questions.
david_draco 7y ago
> Different people reported different symptoms. Most people did not report hearing any particular sounds. Of those who did, they said they heard very different sounds, and at different times and places. None of the sounds bore any similarity to sonic weapons. Only one person reported permanent hearing loss; and as nobody else did, we can safely assume that it was likely due to natural causes for that person. One reported a concussion with no apparent cause, but nobody else did either. So if we are looking for some external cause for these symptoms, we learn that it was probably not any one cause. It was a number of different causes, suggesting that these people were suffering from various unrelated problems. The point is that this event is inconsistent with any known diseases or injuries, including sonic devices, but completely consistent with other events of (self-reinforcing) mass hallucinations. No one is saying the affected have not suffered.
- erentz 7y ago
  But isn’t this just saying: “we have no existing evidence or test today showing a physiological illness so therefore we are going to call it this other imagined thing for which we also can’t prove, yet which has been repeatedly disproven over history.” All illness have at some time been “inconsistent with any known diseases or injuries”, MS, epilepsy, CFS, etc. What’s more likely at this point. I think lack of evidence in medicine shouldn’t be used as evidence for “psychogenic illness.” Just as lack of evidence for something in physics shouldn’t be used as evidence for “god put it there.” Doctors should get used to saying “we don’t know what’s wrong with these people yet” instead of trying to force an answer where there currently isn’t one. It’s far more correct and much kinder.
- pfisch 7y ago
  Show me an event that is conclusively psychogenic. At this point I feel like a psychogenic diagnosis is like attributing something to god/religion. When you say what the cause of something is the burden of proof is now on you to provide evidence of that.

tim333 7y ago

There's always the "US Intelligence thinks Russia may have microwaved US embassies" theory. I'm not sure mass psychogenic events cause the "sustained injury to widespread brain networks" noted in the Journal of the American Medical Association which I guess is academic literature. Looking at the wikipedia for mass psychogenic events they are noted for "symptoms that are transient and benign; symptoms with rapid onset and recovery" eg headaches and coughs not stuff like "one diplomat's hearing was damaged to the point that he now requires a hearing aid" (skeptoid article) or structural changes to the brain (telegraph article). There are a few DIYers making microwave guns on youtube but I don't think they point them at people much https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80kDn4vit_w&feature=youtu.be&t=450 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80kDn4vit_w&feature=youtu.be...