3 ms·

in my experience many developers want to be bricklayers (not to discount bricklaying, there's an art to it, but they're focused on the individual bricks, not th

by dpeck 7y ago

in my experience many developers want to be bricklayers (not to discount bricklaying, there's an art to it, but they're focused on the individual bricks, not the other aspects of the building). They get annoyed when they're asked to think about the bigger picture and just want to focus on the code, the architecture, and whatever is new and shiny. It is largely due to these sorts of developers that we've developed all the ritual around sprints/product owners/etc to put blinders on them because they cannot deal with deadline and thinking in terms of business value creation. This sort of person is under-represented here on HN for obvious reasons but they represent the majority of people developing software. The opportunity to contribute more than just lines of code should be offered and encouraged, but don't be surprised at how few will be interested.

ravenstine 7y ago
There's a ton of truth to that. A lot of people speak like everyone wants to be a 10x engineer. Personally, being that sort of engineer has never appealed to me, and the majority of developers in my social circle in practice want to be the "bricklayers" of code because it's already a sweet financial deal.
yezanotherone 7y ago
I am one of these happy bricklayers. It's the only way I can stay sane in a job. When I'm working on my own projects, I'm all in, and I love all aspects of the process. But in a job, on a project that 99% of the time is run badly, and my colleagues are writing terrible code, just give me the bricks and tell me what to build. If I try to care, I get frustrated and depressed. Plus, I'd be fooling myself if I were not like this. I've seen people put their passion into a job, argue their case, and then they get made redundant. Don't be fooled. P.s. I'm a very good, reliable bricklayer who makes very solid walls.
- opportune 7y ago
  Yeah I agree with this. If you are not in a high-up position you will just get too frustrated caring about the bigger picture because you have little power when it comes to actually making bigger-picture decisions. So all you can do is suggest things which 1) may not be well received, could be perceived as some low-level employee overstepping their bounds 2) probably won't be heeded since then the managers/pms/directors/etc. have to concede power
diminoten 7y ago
This is both true and hard to deal with, because sometimes these bricklayers will a) assume everyone is trying to be a bricklayer, and b) will actively attack non-bricklayers because of the perception that they're being made to look bad. I honestly don't yet know how to fit everyone together.
- babuskov 7y ago
  > I honestly don't yet know how to fit everyone together Bricklayers should be managed and never put into more senior role. Also, you should never build a mixed team with bricklayers and "other" developers (except for case where there is only one "other" developer and they are the team lead).
0xDEFC0DE 7y ago
It's entirely possible their current job is done at their maximum effort without burning themselves out. So asking them for more isn't going to do anything long-term.
cheeky78 7y ago
"The opportunity to contribute more than just lines of code should be offered and encouraged, but don't be surprised at how few will be interested." I learned a long ago: 1) I can offer the best ideas that go beyond lines of code, but it usually comes down to the decision of someone in a higher position than me (manager, sales, the CEO, etc) and if they just don't feel like utilizing your ideas, they won't. Fighting this is more trouble than it's worth. 2) Most companies, unless you are in a startup where you wear many hats, don't want you offering your ideas. They have the ideas and want the developer to make them into a reality. 3) Most of the time, a project manager is the person that thinks about the bigger picture. I don't really want to have the responsibility of both roles..without the salary increase that comes along with it. I love thinking about the bigger picture, which is why I have my own company I'm building on the side. But I would much rather just get my job done as a developer for my day job.
- jonny_eh 7y ago
  There's no shortage of ideas, especially within a company. If you want your ideas to win out, you should take advantage of what you do best… making things. If you combine your idea pitch with a working prototype (doesn't need to be polished), it's odds of getting adopted will be far more likely. If your idea isn't one that can be prototyped, e.g. "Ask Microsoft for a billion dollars", then you may as well just pitch it, just like anyone else.
  - vmateixeira 7y ago
    Just out of curiosity, when would you think these prototypes should be best built? Surely not on my free time, right? If the company is not interested on listening to new ideas, and you're keen on participating in something you would like to help build, then perhaps this is not the right company for you.
    - bryanrasmussen 7y ago
      I have a project right now that I am thinking of building a prototype for on my own time and pitching to my company, because the company will basically have to sell the idea to another business. Why would I do this? Because then I can say how much I want to be compensated for my idea getting the company new business.
jm__87 7y ago
> They get annoyed when they're asked to think about the bigger picture and just want to focus on the code, the architecture, and whatever is new and shiny. Maybe I'm the exception here, but this does not really describe most devs I've worked with. I've seen really smart devs just not care to argue anymore in workplaces where no one listens to them, but this is not the same thing as wanting to be a "bricklayer". Most devs usually have a lot of work on their plate and not enough time or energy to argue with some product owner or manager who is determined to get their way and who does have the time and authority to force their ideas through. On multiple occasions I've seen great teams destroyed when some determined micromanager gets promoted and decides they are going to "fix everything" without actually listening to their people with the most hands on experience. This and many other forms of organizational BS can lead to developer apathy from what I've seen, but I really don't think the dev who just wants to be a bricklayer is the norm.

by dpeck 7y ago

ravenstine 7y ago

There's a ton of truth to that. A lot of people speak like everyone wants to be a 10x engineer. Personally, being that sort of engineer has never appealed to me, and the majority of developers in my social circle in practice want to be the "bricklayers" of code because it's already a sweet financial deal.

yezanotherone 7y ago

I am one of these happy bricklayers. It's the only way I can stay sane in a job. When I'm working on my own projects, I'm all in, and I love all aspects of the process. But in a job, on a project that 99% of the time is run badly, and my colleagues are writing terrible code, just give me the bricks and tell me what to build. If I try to care, I get frustrated and depressed. Plus, I'd be fooling myself if I were not like this. I've seen people put their passion into a job, argue their case, and then they get made redundant. Don't be fooled. P.s. I'm a very good, reliable bricklayer who makes very solid walls.

opportune 7y ago
Yeah I agree with this. If you are not in a high-up position you will just get too frustrated caring about the bigger picture because you have little power when it comes to actually making bigger-picture decisions. So all you can do is suggest things which 1) may not be well received, could be perceived as some low-level employee overstepping their bounds 2) probably won't be heeded since then the managers/pms/directors/etc. have to concede power

diminoten 7y ago

This is both true and hard to deal with, because sometimes these bricklayers will a) assume everyone is trying to be a bricklayer, and b) will actively attack non-bricklayers because of the perception that they're being made to look bad. I honestly don't yet know how to fit everyone together.

babuskov 7y ago
> I honestly don't yet know how to fit everyone together Bricklayers should be managed and never put into more senior role. Also, you should never build a mixed team with bricklayers and "other" developers (except for case where there is only one "other" developer and they are the team lead).

0xDEFC0DE 7y ago

It's entirely possible their current job is done at their maximum effort without burning themselves out. So asking them for more isn't going to do anything long-term.

cheeky78 7y ago

"The opportunity to contribute more than just lines of code should be offered and encouraged, but don't be surprised at how few will be interested." I learned a long ago: 1) I can offer the best ideas that go beyond lines of code, but it usually comes down to the decision of someone in a higher position than me (manager, sales, the CEO, etc) and if they just don't feel like utilizing your ideas, they won't. Fighting this is more trouble than it's worth. 2) Most companies, unless you are in a startup where you wear many hats, don't want you offering your ideas. They have the ideas and want the developer to make them into a reality. 3) Most of the time, a project manager is the person that thinks about the bigger picture. I don't really want to have the responsibility of both roles..without the salary increase that comes along with it. I love thinking about the bigger picture, which is why I have my own company I'm building on the side. But I would much rather just get my job done as a developer for my day job.

jonny_eh 7y ago
There's no shortage of ideas, especially within a company. If you want your ideas to win out, you should take advantage of what you do best… making things. If you combine your idea pitch with a working prototype (doesn't need to be polished), it's odds of getting adopted will be far more likely. If your idea isn't one that can be prototyped, e.g. "Ask Microsoft for a billion dollars", then you may as well just pitch it, just like anyone else.
- vmateixeira 7y ago
  Just out of curiosity, when would you think these prototypes should be best built? Surely not on my free time, right? If the company is not interested on listening to new ideas, and you're keen on participating in something you would like to help build, then perhaps this is not the right company for you.
  - bryanrasmussen 7y ago
    I have a project right now that I am thinking of building a prototype for on my own time and pitching to my company, because the company will basically have to sell the idea to another business. Why would I do this? Because then I can say how much I want to be compensated for my idea getting the company new business.

jm__87 7y ago

> They get annoyed when they're asked to think about the bigger picture and just want to focus on the code, the architecture, and whatever is new and shiny. Maybe I'm the exception here, but this does not really describe most devs I've worked with. I've seen really smart devs just not care to argue anymore in workplaces where no one listens to them, but this is not the same thing as wanting to be a "bricklayer". Most devs usually have a lot of work on their plate and not enough time or energy to argue with some product owner or manager who is determined to get their way and who does have the time and authority to force their ideas through. On multiple occasions I've seen great teams destroyed when some determined micromanager gets promoted and decides they are going to "fix everything" without actually listening to their people with the most hands on experience. This and many other forms of organizational BS can lead to developer apathy from what I've seen, but I really don't think the dev who just wants to be a bricklayer is the norm.