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This will be a taboo and unpopular option. My theory is that these discussions are theater. More often than not people store and access their data from their

This will be a taboo and unpopular option. My theory is that these discussions are theater. More often than not people store and access their data from their cell phones. Between CarrierIQ and OTA updates/access, there is no such things as end-to-end encryption on a cell phone. People get really upset when I bring this up. I suspect it is a matter of denial and not providing links to public documents, which will never exist. I would suggest that very few people have the patience to implement proper OpSec with their own data. You don't even need "backdoors" in encryption. Existing lawful-intercept on Slack, Discord, Facebook, Google and all the wireless carriers will net just about anything you could ever want to know.

wysifnwyg 7y ago
The article doesn't seem to indicate which devices are communicating, just generally referring to communication. Medical devices which communicate should certainly not be an acceptable communication to risk.
pslam 7y ago
> Between CarrierIQ and OTA updates/access, there is no such things as end-to-end encryption on a cell phone. I don't think you understand what end-to-end means.
- kevinsundar 7y ago
  Even with end to end at some point the information needs to be displayed to the user and especially on Android at that point you can collect anything you'd like. Unless there is some way of encrypting data all the way to the display controller I don't know about. But that will never happen as it would be the end of so many other features. So he's right theres no such thing as true end to end on common cell phones.
  - ska 7y ago
    > no such thing as true end to end on common cell phones. Hardly the only application though, is it?
  - nitrogen 7y ago
    Unless there is some way of encrypting data all the way to the display controller I don't know about. That's kind of what HDCP is, so it could be done on an embedded display too.
    - SomeOldThrow 7y ago
      IIUC you'd have to encrypt the text rendering, not the rendered text, for the message to be e2e encrypted and inaccessible through memory.
      - nitrogen 7y ago
        In theory you could run the decryption and rendering in the GPU (as is done for video), which would re-encrypt for display.
- LinuxBender 7y ago
  I most certainly do. CarrierIQ (former name) negates it. HTTPS and GPG can't hide anything from it. Any phone app will be entirely transparent. There are other debug apps embeded in different phones that can be triggered to start gathering data in the background. They can even tell the velocity you swiped in what direction and what angle you were holding the phone.
  - eitland 7y ago
    > I most certainly do. I do not find that this comment proven, neither in your profile, nor in the context of this thread.
liability 7y ago
> People get really upset when I bring this up. I suspect it is a matter of denial and not providing links to public documents, which will never exist. The last time I saw this matter being discussed here, tptacek was getting pretty upset at people who were suggesting that baseband processors presented a security threat. He's a security expert with a reputation to uphold so I expect he's probably right, but I would still like to see a detailed explanation of why he's right. For a reason I don't understand, this topic seems to illicit a lot of insults, when calmly assuaging fears would doubtlessly be more effective.
- mehrdadn 7y ago
  For those interested: here is one of those posts: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14240626 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14240626
rank0 7y ago
Is there somewhere I could read some more on this point? I was under the impression that iMessage was end-end encrypted. So unless Apple has a secret backdoor built into their systems, nobody should be able to access those messages correct? Wireless carriers are just sending my encrypted messages over their networks. What am I missing? Do you believe my cell service provider could decrypt my HTTPS connections to my bank?
- robdachshund 7y ago
  Why bother trying to break encryption when you have backdoors in the hardware and OS? It's far easier to just use a keylogger on your OS keyboard, take a screenshot, access RAM buffers, etc.
- vermilingua 7y ago
  I think the point is that the govt can sidestep https by just going to the bank; as they can to most services.
- mjevans 7y ago
  It doesn't matter if the apps try to be secure. If any point in the communication holds the key-data in memory and is not on a //user// trusted device then the key is compromised. Since cellphones have a BMC that isn't user owned, which does have access to the full system memory (rather than being an isolated peripheral modem), and since OTA firmware updates can be pushed by the "infrastructure" (including fake 'towers' setup by TLAs, criminal hackers of other sorts, and hobbyists) containing code to compromise and silently ex-filtrate any data (including those keys, or even just the conversation directly); it is an inherently insecure environment.
  - passivepinetree 7y ago
    What should the average security-conscious person do then? Resort to one-time pads? Is there any way to be truly secure, or should we just stop trying?
    - 7y ago

wysifnwyg 7y ago

The article doesn't seem to indicate which devices are communicating, just generally referring to communication. Medical devices which communicate should certainly not be an acceptable communication to risk.

pslam 7y ago

> Between CarrierIQ and OTA updates/access, there is no such things as end-to-end encryption on a cell phone. I don't think you understand what end-to-end means.

kevinsundar 7y ago
Even with end to end at some point the information needs to be displayed to the user and especially on Android at that point you can collect anything you'd like. Unless there is some way of encrypting data all the way to the display controller I don't know about. But that will never happen as it would be the end of so many other features. So he's right theres no such thing as true end to end on common cell phones.
- ska 7y ago
  > no such thing as true end to end on common cell phones. Hardly the only application though, is it?
- nitrogen 7y ago
  Unless there is some way of encrypting data all the way to the display controller I don't know about. That's kind of what HDCP is, so it could be done on an embedded display too.
  - SomeOldThrow 7y ago
    IIUC you'd have to encrypt the text rendering, not the rendered text, for the message to be e2e encrypted and inaccessible through memory.
    - nitrogen 7y ago
      In theory you could run the decryption and rendering in the GPU (as is done for video), which would re-encrypt for display.
LinuxBender 7y ago
I most certainly do. CarrierIQ (former name) negates it. HTTPS and GPG can't hide anything from it. Any phone app will be entirely transparent. There are other debug apps embeded in different phones that can be triggered to start gathering data in the background. They can even tell the velocity you swiped in what direction and what angle you were holding the phone.
- eitland 7y ago
  > I most certainly do. I do not find that this comment proven, neither in your profile, nor in the context of this thread.

liability 7y ago

> People get really upset when I bring this up. I suspect it is a matter of denial and not providing links to public documents, which will never exist. The last time I saw this matter being discussed here, tptacek was getting pretty upset at people who were suggesting that baseband processors presented a security threat. He's a security expert with a reputation to uphold so I expect he's probably right, but I would still like to see a detailed explanation of why he's right. For a reason I don't understand, this topic seems to illicit a lot of insults, when calmly assuaging fears would doubtlessly be more effective.

mehrdadn 7y ago
For those interested: here is one of those posts: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14240626 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14240626

rank0 7y ago

Is there somewhere I could read some more on this point? I was under the impression that iMessage was end-end encrypted. So unless Apple has a secret backdoor built into their systems, nobody should be able to access those messages correct? Wireless carriers are just sending my encrypted messages over their networks. What am I missing? Do you believe my cell service provider could decrypt my HTTPS connections to my bank?

robdachshund 7y ago
Why bother trying to break encryption when you have backdoors in the hardware and OS? It's far easier to just use a keylogger on your OS keyboard, take a screenshot, access RAM buffers, etc.
vermilingua 7y ago
I think the point is that the govt can sidestep https by just going to the bank; as they can to most services.
mjevans 7y ago
It doesn't matter if the apps try to be secure. If any point in the communication holds the key-data in memory and is not on a //user// trusted device then the key is compromised. Since cellphones have a BMC that isn't user owned, which does have access to the full system memory (rather than being an isolated peripheral modem), and since OTA firmware updates can be pushed by the "infrastructure" (including fake 'towers' setup by TLAs, criminal hackers of other sorts, and hobbyists) containing code to compromise and silently ex-filtrate any data (including those keys, or even just the conversation directly); it is an inherently insecure environment.
- passivepinetree 7y ago
  What should the average security-conscious person do then? Resort to one-time pads? Is there any way to be truly secure, or should we just stop trying?
  - 7y ago