4 ms·

Maybe we should work on making cities less greedy about tax revenue and instead care more about benefiting the people who live there.

lonelappde 7y ago
Why are you blaming cities for a straw man wholly invented by an HN poster?
Angostura 7y ago
The problem is that's a lovely sentiment until there isn't enough money to keep the libraries open.
- flattone 7y ago
  +10 simce when did we start loving in "everyone be happy america"
- jimmaswell 7y ago
  Tiny rural towns manage to have libraries. Cities are just addicted to tax revenue.
  - lazyasciiart 7y ago
    A lot of them don't, though. Libraries are often funded by the county, not the city, which can help the tiny towns with a library, but there are plenty of tiny rural towns that don't have one. Like everything else, they need funding to survive. Here's an example where the county stopped funding them so the cities have stepped up with taxes and donations: https://expo.oregonlive.com/news/erry-2018/06/e72ef198469825/county_govt_closed_all_their_p.html https://expo.oregonlive.com/news/erry-2018/06/e72ef198469825...
  - dragonwriter 7y ago
    > Tiny rural towns manage to have libraries. Often, when they do, it is either: (1) Because of state funding specifically for rural counties, which amounts to a revenue transfer from urban counties, or (2) Because the rural town is in a county with, and deriving revenue from, a city, funding county libraries in the rural town as well as the city. Even more often, tiny rural towns don't have public libraries, and you have to go to a neighboring town or the nearest city.
    - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
      In my experience most small towns big enough to have any services have a "library" that is comprised of a few rooms in the shared town hall/police/public offices building that is run by some (usually senior citizen) volunteer(s) and has a fairly poor collection of books but can get anything you want on loan as long as you don't need it that day. If they don't have a library they probably have some other "nice to have but not essential" type service that's run in the same manner. My experience is limited to the rural northeast. I suspect the rural midwest is even more likely to have libraries because of how those towns were planned out back in the day. I think your bias is showing.
      - nitrogen 7y ago
        The parent comment would work better without (or rewording) the remark on bias. I have lived in rural, suburban, and dense urban areas in my life (currently high density urban), and there is a bias on HN toward the idea that rural communities are unsustainable on their own and mere leeches on the city dwellers. That's likely true in some places, but not universally. Sustainable rural communities have exports of resources, housing, and/or tourism, that outweigh their cost. As the parent comment describes, one model for remote communities is volunteers who work at the library because they care. The cost of everything is lower -- labor, food, matetials -- so what looks too expensive for a town might actually be fully sustainable.
        Qworg 7y ago
        I wish we could get some numbers on this, as I've lived in the same spread of places as you and I agree with the GP. I'd be happy to be proven wrong. The sustainable rural community is exceedingly rare - most are propped up by ag subsidies and state aid. For much of the central part of America, there's no housing benefit or tourism to speak of, just resources (corn/soy in general, maybe livestock).
      - jgon 7y ago
        Ok so the parent says that when small towns have a library, it's not because they are run in a more enlightened fashion than revenue guzzling big cities, but because these small towns are subsidized by the economic contributions of said big cities, either on a state or country level. You then counter by saying that's wrong and actually small towns have a small library that has a crappy selection but they can get you any book you want if you can wait. Pop quiz hotshot: Where do you think there is enough built up infrastructure, wealth, and surplus labor capacity to have a large centralized store of books and to organize and distribute said books? Probably just another small town, am I right?
- bilbo0s 7y ago
  Yep. Schools, police, fire, water and sewer. That's the minimum price of entry. And that's with no nice to haves, like libraries, sidewalks, or snow and garbage removal. (And it assumes the state is willing to maintain most of a city's streets free of charge?) Cities cost money. Lots of it.
madhadron 7y ago
The problem is how they are laid out. Most cities in the US aren't dense enough for their tax revenue to pay for their infrastructure.
vkou 7y ago
City incentives are very directly driven by the people who live there. Municipal elections, and city council meetings, are the closest thing to direct democracy that you'll probably experience in your life. The problem with direct democracy is that the people who have the most time to waste (or the most money at stake) on playing politics are the ones who show up. It's also why your HOA is probably governed by a hand-picked selection of devils from the Fifth Circle of Hell.
cortesoft 7y ago
You mean tax revenue that is spent to benefit the people who live there?

lonelappde 7y ago

Why are you blaming cities for a straw man wholly invented by an HN poster?

Angostura 7y ago

The problem is that's a lovely sentiment until there isn't enough money to keep the libraries open.

flattone 7y ago
+10 simce when did we start loving in "everyone be happy america"
jimmaswell 7y ago
Tiny rural towns manage to have libraries. Cities are just addicted to tax revenue.
- lazyasciiart 7y ago
  A lot of them don't, though. Libraries are often funded by the county, not the city, which can help the tiny towns with a library, but there are plenty of tiny rural towns that don't have one. Like everything else, they need funding to survive. Here's an example where the county stopped funding them so the cities have stepped up with taxes and donations: https://expo.oregonlive.com/news/erry-2018/06/e72ef198469825/county_govt_closed_all_their_p.html https://expo.oregonlive.com/news/erry-2018/06/e72ef198469825...
- dragonwriter 7y ago
  > Tiny rural towns manage to have libraries. Often, when they do, it is either: (1) Because of state funding specifically for rural counties, which amounts to a revenue transfer from urban counties, or (2) Because the rural town is in a county with, and deriving revenue from, a city, funding county libraries in the rural town as well as the city. Even more often, tiny rural towns don't have public libraries, and you have to go to a neighboring town or the nearest city.
  - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
    In my experience most small towns big enough to have any services have a "library" that is comprised of a few rooms in the shared town hall/police/public offices building that is run by some (usually senior citizen) volunteer(s) and has a fairly poor collection of books but can get anything you want on loan as long as you don't need it that day. If they don't have a library they probably have some other "nice to have but not essential" type service that's run in the same manner. My experience is limited to the rural northeast. I suspect the rural midwest is even more likely to have libraries because of how those towns were planned out back in the day. I think your bias is showing.
    - nitrogen 7y ago
      The parent comment would work better without (or rewording) the remark on bias. I have lived in rural, suburban, and dense urban areas in my life (currently high density urban), and there is a bias on HN toward the idea that rural communities are unsustainable on their own and mere leeches on the city dwellers. That's likely true in some places, but not universally. Sustainable rural communities have exports of resources, housing, and/or tourism, that outweigh their cost. As the parent comment describes, one model for remote communities is volunteers who work at the library because they care. The cost of everything is lower -- labor, food, matetials -- so what looks too expensive for a town might actually be fully sustainable.
      - Qworg 7y ago
        I wish we could get some numbers on this, as I've lived in the same spread of places as you and I agree with the GP. I'd be happy to be proven wrong. The sustainable rural community is exceedingly rare - most are propped up by ag subsidies and state aid. For much of the central part of America, there's no housing benefit or tourism to speak of, just resources (corn/soy in general, maybe livestock).
    - jgon 7y ago
      Ok so the parent says that when small towns have a library, it's not because they are run in a more enlightened fashion than revenue guzzling big cities, but because these small towns are subsidized by the economic contributions of said big cities, either on a state or country level. You then counter by saying that's wrong and actually small towns have a small library that has a crappy selection but they can get you any book you want if you can wait. Pop quiz hotshot: Where do you think there is enough built up infrastructure, wealth, and surplus labor capacity to have a large centralized store of books and to organize and distribute said books? Probably just another small town, am I right?
bilbo0s 7y ago
Yep. Schools, police, fire, water and sewer. That's the minimum price of entry. And that's with no nice to haves, like libraries, sidewalks, or snow and garbage removal. (And it assumes the state is willing to maintain most of a city's streets free of charge?) Cities cost money. Lots of it.

madhadron 7y ago

The problem is how they are laid out. Most cities in the US aren't dense enough for their tax revenue to pay for their infrastructure.

vkou 7y ago

City incentives are very directly driven by the people who live there. Municipal elections, and city council meetings, are the closest thing to direct democracy that you'll probably experience in your life. The problem with direct democracy is that the people who have the most time to waste (or the most money at stake) on playing politics are the ones who show up. It's also why your HOA is probably governed by a hand-picked selection of devils from the Fifth Circle of Hell.

cortesoft 7y ago

You mean tax revenue that is spent to benefit the people who live there?