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> It's a fair accusation, though I bristle at the use of the phrase "alt-right goon." If that's the impression I gave in my writing, it's not what I meant, so I

• komali2 7y ago
  > I'll just note that, psychologically your comment has encouraged me to cool my heels a bit. Thank you, I try to do the same for myself in such discussions, and it's helpful to know when certain strategies work. > Part of reconciliation requires recognizing when the other party has a legitimate complaint. I do think about this a lot. I tend to go straight for the extreme example though, which may make it more tricky to develop effective strategies. Basically, when a bunch of self-identifying nazis/white supremacists turn up in your town, what is the "effective solution?" Basically, is reconciliation even appropriate? And if it is, how do you reconciliate when you don't believe they have a legitimate complaint, as in the case with nazis? How do you even have a dialogue without in some way legitimizing their belief system (a belief system one finds distasteful)? And further, how do you scale this to public discourse, which consists of bad actors strewn in with real people all mixed together on twitter/reddit/facebook in an indecipherable mess of shilling/fake news? Which brings me to your question - I think, both. That they are hiding it because it annoys me when people co-opt legitimate complaints, i.e. when people accuse someone of anti-semitism for simple criticism of the government of Israel (which then devalues instances when we can criticize actual anti-semites). But, also, yes, because they are conservatives, and despite the fact that (or maybe because of the fact that) I grew up in the deep red south, I genuinely cannot separate modern alt-right ideology from the desire to bully and hurt people. I don't even know what non-alt-right conservatism is anymore - all I hear from my Texan and South Carolina friends is anger that minorities are getting represented, anger that transgender people can use whatever bathroom they want, anger at someone for being proud to work at planned parenthood... I see angry liberals too, but maybe I just have an easier time ignoring them because they're just "the fringe crazies" to me? Perhaps because I can find a great deal of liberals to have conversations and disagree with, but I legitimately have not found someone who self-identifies as a conservative / altright / supportive of the current administration that didn't also think some people are worth less than other people, which to me removes all possibility of common ground / reconciliation. Now that I think more about it, such people (friends in Texas for example), when shown the pain their actions or words can cause to a transgender person (as an example) start to completely move away from the entire altright ideology (and because there's no modern conservative that isn't altright, that means they become liberals). A transgender person passing without any of us knowing, suddenly revealing their transgender status (this is years ago), led to a total "crossing of the aisle" for several of my friends that had earlier in my life been big fans of "locker room talk" type behavior. But that's not reconciliation, that's conversion. So, I need help figuring out reconciliation. Or, I need everyone to convert, and if that's the case lord help me if I'm wrong.
  • Fins 7y ago
    > and because there's no modern conservative that isn't altright This is a rather amazing claim, I would be very interested in seeing some supporting evidence, since alt-right has far more in common with the left than with any proper and traditional conservatism. Unless, of course, you define "people I don't agree with" as alt-right with no regard for what they ideology might actually be.
    • komali2 7y ago
      I agree, it is amazing. This is my experience, though. I have even had the issue talking with my old-guard Republican representatives in Texas, who have transmogrified into hateful parodies of the conservatives they used to be. We used to merely disagree on fiscal policy, now they send me emails telling me that as a liberal, I am radical, insane, an anti Semite, and hate America. If there are conservatives that don't engage with the world like this, I want to get a drink with them, on me, because I've lost hope. I'm very curious what ties you see between the alt right and the left. I don't define the alt right as "people I disagree with." There's plenty on the left I disagree with - anybody engaged in violence, for starters.
      • Fins 7y ago
        I believe you could just as well conclude that these people are not conservatives by any reasonable stretch of the word, too. But then, "liberal" doesn't quite mean what it used to as well. People at The American Conservative [0] might be religious nuts but I don't think anyone could in good conscience accuse them of being anywhere near alt-right. And alt-right engages in identity politics, believes in primacy of the group over individual, see "enemies" behind every tree, and want to use the State against groups they dislike. Very much like the left. And while you would not want to meet either on a dark street, both, in US at least, are, generally, clowns who would be the first ones to be sent to the camps in the Reich, or USSR, or any other shining example of what happens when either come to power. [0] https://www.theamericanconservative.com/ https://www.theamericanconservative.com/
        • 7y ago