4 ms·

So how do you personally test that perception?

AnimalMuppet 7y ago
With statistical validity? To p = 0.05? I don't. But picking one form of "silencing" (people whose invitations to speak on university campuses were withdrawn, blocked, or cancelled due to threats of violence), and measuring it by how much I read about it in the press, it appears that the right is blocked more than the left. And the press is not currently disposed present things in a way that makes the right look more sympathetic.
- neaden 7y ago
  Honest question, do you think liberal speakers are getting invited to places like Liberty University in the first place?
  - AnimalMuppet 7y ago
    Probably not. Honest question back: Why do you think Liberty University is the yardstick, rather than public universities?
    - neaden 7y ago
      Because the dis-invitations that get press happen at very liberal universities, either private or well known public liberal universities like Berkely. Academia as a whole leans left, so this is unsurprising. I'm unaware of any right leaning public universities to name check but I assume they exist in some areas.
      - AnimalMuppet 7y ago
        I also am unaware of any right leaning public universities to check. But that kind of makes my point. The left controls the public universities in a way that the right doesn't, and uses them (in at least some cases) to block speech by the right. The right may be just as willing to block speech as the left, but they don't have the opportunity to do so right now. Ergo, if you want to address the problem, right now you need to address the left. I hold public universities to a higher standard than private ones in this regard. It's more acceptable in my view for a private university to have a bias (either left or right), and to enforce it, than it is for a public university.
        komali2 7y ago
        > The left controls the public universities But, this is prejudice - there is no authority structure in "the left," it's a totally amorphous set of political / ethical ideals that's honestly terribly defined. So there's two issues I take with this statement: 1. What is "the left?" Can we actually draw a border around it in a way that lets us make the statement, "the left controls the public universities?" I'll hazard that you'll find, within public university administrations, people pro- and anti-choice, people pro- and anti- gun control, supporters of total Israeli sovereignty alongside protesters of Israeli's government, fiscal conservatives alongside socialists... I'm not trying to dispute that public university staff "lean left," but I just don't agree that there's some secret cabal of "leftists" who all agree with eachother. 2. Left-leaning staff are not card-carrying members of an organization (I mean, outside the Democrat party or something) that directs their actions. The definition "the left" arises from a shared set of political beliefs, not the other way around, like a political party. I.e., the democrat party (kinda) represents a certain set of ethics, and you join it if your ethics are aligned. But "the left" is not something you join, it is a description of the majority amalgamation of your beliefs.
        AnimalMuppet 7y ago
        Your disagreement seems to be with the word "control". I will agree that it is perhaps too strong a word. Yet we both agree that public university staff lean left; this means that the left has more... shall we say influence? "Control" is too strong, and yet, the situation is not neutral. [Edit: By the way, let me just say how much I have appreciated the tone of this discussion with you, neaden, and BryantD. I have felt that thoughtful people who disagreed with me were reasoning with me. I have not felt slammed or yelled at. It's been what an HN discussion ought to be.]
        BryantD 7y ago
        So... the linked article doesn't really limit itself to public universities when offering examples of free speech issues. Haidt talks about Oberlin (favorably); they're a private college. Brown University is cited as an example of chilling free speech later on; Brown is, of course, private. The FIRE database cited -- https://www.thefire.org/research/disinvitation-database/ https://www.thefire.org/research/disinvitation-database/ -- also doesn't make the distinction between public and private. They do leave out religious institutions. I'm sincerely not trying to play gotcha games here; I'm suggesting that your perceptions may have been shaped by a very convincing publicity campaign over the course of decades. I spent some time with this dataset today (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1eeTHZQOh9faZ2P3C_O3sVBuRAG1LzIZnsq6LB50NUHk/edit#gid=122618086 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1eeTHZQOh9faZ2P3C_O3s...) just for the sake of resetting my perceptions and validating how I felt. It was a pretty useful exercise. And, finally, the Princeton Review list of the most conservative student populations in the US: https://www.princetonreview.com/college-rankings?rankings=most-conservative-students https://www.princetonreview.com/college-rankings?rankings=mo... That's a survey, doesn't touch on faculty attitudes, and is no doubt flawed in other ways. But man, I went to college at a state school in a rural state. It's fascinating how quickly people assume that UC Berkeley is the typical public university.

With statistical validity? To p = 0.05? I don't. But picking one form of "silencing" (people whose invitations to speak on university campuses were withdrawn, blocked, or cancelled due to threats of violence), and measuring it by how much I read about it in the press, it appears that the right is blocked more than the left. And the press is not currently disposed present things in a way that makes the right look more sympathetic.

neaden 7y ago
Honest question, do you think liberal speakers are getting invited to places like Liberty University in the first place?
- AnimalMuppet 7y ago
  Probably not. Honest question back: Why do you think Liberty University is the yardstick, rather than public universities?
  - neaden 7y ago
    Because the dis-invitations that get press happen at very liberal universities, either private or well known public liberal universities like Berkely. Academia as a whole leans left, so this is unsurprising. I'm unaware of any right leaning public universities to name check but I assume they exist in some areas.
    - AnimalMuppet 7y ago
      I also am unaware of any right leaning public universities to check. But that kind of makes my point. The left controls the public universities in a way that the right doesn't, and uses them (in at least some cases) to block speech by the right. The right may be just as willing to block speech as the left, but they don't have the opportunity to do so right now. Ergo, if you want to address the problem, right now you need to address the left. I hold public universities to a higher standard than private ones in this regard. It's more acceptable in my view for a private university to have a bias (either left or right), and to enforce it, than it is for a public university.
      - komali2 7y ago
        > The left controls the public universities But, this is prejudice - there is no authority structure in "the left," it's a totally amorphous set of political / ethical ideals that's honestly terribly defined. So there's two issues I take with this statement: 1. What is "the left?" Can we actually draw a border around it in a way that lets us make the statement, "the left controls the public universities?" I'll hazard that you'll find, within public university administrations, people pro- and anti-choice, people pro- and anti- gun control, supporters of total Israeli sovereignty alongside protesters of Israeli's government, fiscal conservatives alongside socialists... I'm not trying to dispute that public university staff "lean left," but I just don't agree that there's some secret cabal of "leftists" who all agree with eachother. 2. Left-leaning staff are not card-carrying members of an organization (I mean, outside the Democrat party or something) that directs their actions. The definition "the left" arises from a shared set of political beliefs, not the other way around, like a political party. I.e., the democrat party (kinda) represents a certain set of ethics, and you join it if your ethics are aligned. But "the left" is not something you join, it is a description of the majority amalgamation of your beliefs.
        AnimalMuppet 7y ago
        Your disagreement seems to be with the word "control". I will agree that it is perhaps too strong a word. Yet we both agree that public university staff lean left; this means that the left has more... shall we say influence? "Control" is too strong, and yet, the situation is not neutral. [Edit: By the way, let me just say how much I have appreciated the tone of this discussion with you, neaden, and BryantD. I have felt that thoughtful people who disagreed with me were reasoning with me. I have not felt slammed or yelled at. It's been what an HN discussion ought to be.]
      - BryantD 7y ago
        So... the linked article doesn't really limit itself to public universities when offering examples of free speech issues. Haidt talks about Oberlin (favorably); they're a private college. Brown University is cited as an example of chilling free speech later on; Brown is, of course, private. The FIRE database cited -- https://www.thefire.org/research/disinvitation-database/ https://www.thefire.org/research/disinvitation-database/ -- also doesn't make the distinction between public and private. They do leave out religious institutions. I'm sincerely not trying to play gotcha games here; I'm suggesting that your perceptions may have been shaped by a very convincing publicity campaign over the course of decades. I spent some time with this dataset today (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1eeTHZQOh9faZ2P3C_O3sVBuRAG1LzIZnsq6LB50NUHk/edit#gid=122618086 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1eeTHZQOh9faZ2P3C_O3s...) just for the sake of resetting my perceptions and validating how I felt. It was a pretty useful exercise. And, finally, the Princeton Review list of the most conservative student populations in the US: https://www.princetonreview.com/college-rankings?rankings=most-conservative-students https://www.princetonreview.com/college-rankings?rankings=mo... That's a survey, doesn't touch on faculty attitudes, and is no doubt flawed in other ways. But man, I went to college at a state school in a rural state. It's fascinating how quickly people assume that UC Berkeley is the typical public university.