4 ms·

It is large industry. More than one of my acquaintances got their green card and then citizenship by paying $20-$30k for fake marriage to a US citizen.

damnyou 7y ago
Another frame: your acquaintances were frustrated at how hard it is to immigrate and figured out a workaround. I strongly believe in freedom of movement so any legal or extra-legal means to do so are all right in my book. Rules are meant to be bent. Laws are meant to be broken.
- filoleg 7y ago
  >I strongly believe in freedom of movement so any legal or extra-legal means to do so are all right in my book. >Laws are meant to be broken. Those two statements sound a bit conflicting to me. Also, I don’t know how one can call green card marriage fraud “bending the rules” or a “workaround”. It is literally lying to USCIS in order to obtain a green card under false pretenses.
  - damnyou 7y ago
    If they are legally married then how is it fraud? The entire idea of marriage fraud is bogus — it's just another invention used to justify state violence against a disfavored group. Marriages exist in all shapes and forms, many more than the state can think of. For example USCIS apparently puts some people through interviews where they ask for intimate personal details of the spouse, like what side of the bed they sleep on or the color of the toothbrush they use. This implies a particular definition of marriage — one where you sleep on the same bed and use the same bathroom. Yet I know plenty of happily married folks who have generally separate lives, including having separate intimate relationships. That doesn't make their marriages any less valid!
    - filoleg 7y ago
      >For example USCIS apparently puts some people through interviews where they ask for intimate personal details of the spouse, like what side of the bed they sleep on or the color of the toothbrush they use. This implies a particular definition of marriage — one where you sleep on the same bed and use the same bathroom. They aren’t looking for a “particular definition of marriage.” They are looking for inconsistencies and divergences between what each partner says, thus trying to catch them lying. I heavily doubt they will call your marriage fraudulent just because you and your partner don’t share the same bed.
      - damnyou 7y ago
        I've heard very different things, sorry. Folks getting harassed and their marriages questioned for not fitting into white, monogamous, cisheteronormative definitions.
  - justaguyhere 7y ago
    It is fraud but more importantly, it only takes a few cases like this for USCIS to make the rules even more tight than they already are. A few bad apples make the system incredibly difficult for the majority. Then slowly more people start breaking the rules (after all, life is short, noone wants to wait decades), then the system becomes even more difficult and the cycle continues. I guess every system begins with good intentions and finally ends up getting unfriendly as people abuse it. One can argue that it is the system creators' job to make the system fair and difficult to game, but that is a topic for another time... end rant :(
- chance_state 7y ago
  >I strongly believe in freedom of movement [...] Why?
  - gcbw2 7y ago
    Why not?
    - propertius 7y ago
      "It's just obvious you can't have free immigration and a welfare state..." That was Milton Friedman's view.
      - gcbw2 7y ago
        He was clearly wrong, as the truly rich/big corporations do not pay taxes and take most from the state.
  - damnyou 7y ago
    Basic human rights. Borders are an expression of state violence. They demonize ordinary people that move to another place. No human is illegal.
- munk-a 7y ago
  I strongly believe in freedom of movement - but any time laws are bent or broken they open the door to selective enforcement - and selective enforcement can be undetectably discriminatory. If a law is silly and we all agree it is then we should get rid of that law. If it's legal in your jurisdiction to be held in holding for going 3 MPH over the speed limit then the only just course of action is to either repeal the law or start throwing everyone into holding for that infraction - ideally that goes on until public will leads to the law being repealed. If that law is only occasionally enforced then it's enforcement leads to capricious and unjust state of the law.
  - damnyou 7y ago
    Yes, there's the important axis of legibility to consider. But laws are often just a legible way to commit violence against marginalized groups — legible harm vs illegible harm needs to be looked at on the merits.
moftz 7y ago
Greece has a program where you invest 250k euros (real estate is a common one) and you get a residency permit good for 5 years and can be renewed as long as you still own that real estate. After 5 years you can apply for a permanent residency, five years of that you can apply for citizenship. Now, Greece isn't the best country but even as a resident you and your family get total access to the rest of the EU.
- NKosmatos 7y ago
  I agree, Greece might not be one of the best countries but a Greek passport is worth more, compared to passports from other countries [0]. Investing 250k on a house gives you access to an EU country with a “powerful” passport and you get to keep a nice Mediterranean house. Now if only I could find an “investor” to buy the summer house I’m selling :-) (oh boy, I’m really going to be downvoted for this shameless plug) [0] https://www.passportindex.org/byRank.php https://www.passportindex.org/byRank.php
- vinay427 7y ago
  You have to live in Greece to eventually qualify for citizenship, which isn't exactly "access to the rest of the EU" if you want to pursue that route. https://www.goldenvisas.com/citizenship-by-investment-greece https://www.goldenvisas.com/citizenship-by-investment-greece > Because of the need to reside in the country the Greek golden visa program is considered a residency investment program rather than citizenship by investment. However the option for citizenship is there for those committed to living in Greece.

damnyou 7y ago

Another frame: your acquaintances were frustrated at how hard it is to immigrate and figured out a workaround. I strongly believe in freedom of movement so any legal or extra-legal means to do so are all right in my book. Rules are meant to be bent. Laws are meant to be broken.

filoleg 7y ago
>I strongly believe in freedom of movement so any legal or extra-legal means to do so are all right in my book. >Laws are meant to be broken. Those two statements sound a bit conflicting to me. Also, I don’t know how one can call green card marriage fraud “bending the rules” or a “workaround”. It is literally lying to USCIS in order to obtain a green card under false pretenses.
- damnyou 7y ago
  If they are legally married then how is it fraud? The entire idea of marriage fraud is bogus — it's just another invention used to justify state violence against a disfavored group. Marriages exist in all shapes and forms, many more than the state can think of. For example USCIS apparently puts some people through interviews where they ask for intimate personal details of the spouse, like what side of the bed they sleep on or the color of the toothbrush they use. This implies a particular definition of marriage — one where you sleep on the same bed and use the same bathroom. Yet I know plenty of happily married folks who have generally separate lives, including having separate intimate relationships. That doesn't make their marriages any less valid!
  - filoleg 7y ago
    >For example USCIS apparently puts some people through interviews where they ask for intimate personal details of the spouse, like what side of the bed they sleep on or the color of the toothbrush they use. This implies a particular definition of marriage — one where you sleep on the same bed and use the same bathroom. They aren’t looking for a “particular definition of marriage.” They are looking for inconsistencies and divergences between what each partner says, thus trying to catch them lying. I heavily doubt they will call your marriage fraudulent just because you and your partner don’t share the same bed.
    - damnyou 7y ago
      I've heard very different things, sorry. Folks getting harassed and their marriages questioned for not fitting into white, monogamous, cisheteronormative definitions.
- justaguyhere 7y ago
  It is fraud but more importantly, it only takes a few cases like this for USCIS to make the rules even more tight than they already are. A few bad apples make the system incredibly difficult for the majority. Then slowly more people start breaking the rules (after all, life is short, noone wants to wait decades), then the system becomes even more difficult and the cycle continues. I guess every system begins with good intentions and finally ends up getting unfriendly as people abuse it. One can argue that it is the system creators' job to make the system fair and difficult to game, but that is a topic for another time... end rant :(
chance_state 7y ago
>I strongly believe in freedom of movement [...] Why?
- gcbw2 7y ago
  Why not?
  - propertius 7y ago
    "It's just obvious you can't have free immigration and a welfare state..." That was Milton Friedman's view.
    - gcbw2 7y ago
      He was clearly wrong, as the truly rich/big corporations do not pay taxes and take most from the state.
- damnyou 7y ago
  Basic human rights. Borders are an expression of state violence. They demonize ordinary people that move to another place. No human is illegal.
munk-a 7y ago
I strongly believe in freedom of movement - but any time laws are bent or broken they open the door to selective enforcement - and selective enforcement can be undetectably discriminatory. If a law is silly and we all agree it is then we should get rid of that law. If it's legal in your jurisdiction to be held in holding for going 3 MPH over the speed limit then the only just course of action is to either repeal the law or start throwing everyone into holding for that infraction - ideally that goes on until public will leads to the law being repealed. If that law is only occasionally enforced then it's enforcement leads to capricious and unjust state of the law.
- damnyou 7y ago
  Yes, there's the important axis of legibility to consider. But laws are often just a legible way to commit violence against marginalized groups — legible harm vs illegible harm needs to be looked at on the merits.

moftz 7y ago

Greece has a program where you invest 250k euros (real estate is a common one) and you get a residency permit good for 5 years and can be renewed as long as you still own that real estate. After 5 years you can apply for a permanent residency, five years of that you can apply for citizenship. Now, Greece isn't the best country but even as a resident you and your family get total access to the rest of the EU.

NKosmatos 7y ago
I agree, Greece might not be one of the best countries but a Greek passport is worth more, compared to passports from other countries [0]. Investing 250k on a house gives you access to an EU country with a “powerful” passport and you get to keep a nice Mediterranean house. Now if only I could find an “investor” to buy the summer house I’m selling :-) (oh boy, I’m really going to be downvoted for this shameless plug) [0] https://www.passportindex.org/byRank.php https://www.passportindex.org/byRank.php
vinay427 7y ago
You have to live in Greece to eventually qualify for citizenship, which isn't exactly "access to the rest of the EU" if you want to pursue that route. https://www.goldenvisas.com/citizenship-by-investment-greece https://www.goldenvisas.com/citizenship-by-investment-greece > Because of the need to reside in the country the Greek golden visa program is considered a residency investment program rather than citizenship by investment. However the option for citizenship is there for those committed to living in Greece.