4 ms·

My belief has always been foreign capital (speculation) is bad, but immigration is good. So if you want to move here and bring all that foreign capital great! I

by rapind 7y ago

My belief has always been foreign capital (speculation) is bad, but immigration is good. So if you want to move here and bring all that foreign capital great! If you want to speculate or park money in Canadian real estate (empty houses and condos) that's really bad for the locals. It never should have been allowed.

Tiktaalik 7y ago
The reason why the Feds ended their version of an investor immigration scheme is because a study found that refugees ended up paying more in income taxes than investor immigrants lmao. So yeah immigrants are great, but it has been abundantly clear that the rich persons buying citizenship are doing so just to have a passport of convenience and buy land as a safe investment and the gains for the rest of Canadian society from that are weak.
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  >a study found that refugees ended up paying more in income taxes than investor immigrants Citation? I mean, presumably there's a citable study out there somewhere. That immigrants in general pay in more taxes sounds plausible. That refugees are a greater net positive (taxes in minus benefits out) than investors, who are basically all wealthy enough to use minimal government services, seems like a stretch.
  - Tiktaalik 7y ago
    There's a bunch of articles if you google the right words, but basically in 2014 Jason Kenny cancelled the program because a Canadian government data showed that millionaires weren't really hanging around and contributing. > According to CIC, investor immigrants reported average earnings of about $18,000 in their first year and just $28,000 after 15 years. After three years, only 47 per cent of such immigrants reported any income. The Canadian average is 67 per cent. > Meanwhile, refugees (those who come to Canada under hardship) reported first-year average incomes of $20,000 and after 15 years those incomes rose to $30,000. Two-thirds of refugees reported income by their fifth year, on par with Canada’s average. > After five years, only 39 per cent reported income, suggesting investor immigrants may leave the country (or declare non-residency) after the citizenship process is complete. https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/refugees-reporting-higher-earnings-in-canada-than-investor-immigrants https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/refugees-reporting-high...
- damnyou 7y ago
  Sounds like a good reason to soak all the rich, not just the foreign rich.
- eps 7y ago
  Canadian investor immigration scheme required purchasing government bonds and holding them, but only for certain amount of time. After that time they could sell bonds and get their money back. It was more of visa-for-a-loan program than anything else. Complete bullshit.
vkou 7y ago
Foreign capital, when it is invested in productive enterprise is good. It reduces the cost of borrowing money, which stimulates your economy, promotes value creation, etc. Assuming you believe that this sort of economic activity is a net good, that is. (And I think that even a dyed-in-the-wool socialist will agree, under the right tax system.) Foreign capital, when invested into a limited, rationed, speculative resource, that is also required for life - like say, housing, is a ----ing nightmare.
- TomMarius 7y ago
  The problem is not foreign capital but that someone thought that limiting housing construction would be a good idea
  - vkou 7y ago
    Vancouver, SF, Seattle are all going through unprecedented construction booms. There are more active cranes in Seattle at the moment then there are anywhere in North America. This has not stopped housing costs from going through-the-roof. People are buying houses to speculate, new residents (foreign rich, or migrating techies) are buying houses with staggering amounts of money - amounts that existing residents could never hope to save up.
    - akavi 7y ago
      Except everything I can find says that Seattle real estate prices are in fact falling. [0] https://komonews.com/news/local/home-prices-dropping-in-the-seattle-metro-area-new-report-finds https://komonews.com/news/local/home-prices-dropping-in-the-... [1] https://www.seattletimes.com/business/real-estate/seattle-area-home-price-cooldown-stands-out-amid-u-s-cities/ https://www.seattletimes.com/business/real-estate/seattle-ar... [2] https://www.trulia.com/real_estate/Seattle-Washington/ https://www.trulia.com/real_estate/Seattle-Washington/
      - emanuensis 7y ago
        ...only at the high end. There is still a rapid shrinkage of space for ordinary folk...
jbay808 7y ago
Immigration would be great, I agree. One issue though is "astronaut families", where several family members (such as children) move to Canada, but the income-earning parents stay abroad and send money. Then they follow along when they retire. This can really distort things, because it's a lot of foreign capital coming in without the productive industry and income taxes being present. Then later it becomes a social services burden. Many of those kids do grow up to become awesome Canadians, so that's good though. But some of them choose to move back abroad after getting their citizenship and education, when it becomes time to work...
jseliger 7y ago
that's really bad for the locals Exporting housing services is a great business and a tremendous opportunity that is too rarely framed as such. https://slate.com/business/2013/05/exporting-housing-services-a-huge-economic-opportunity.html https://slate.com/business/2013/05/exporting-housing-service...
andy_bandy 7y ago
They don't pay income tax. In a country with free medicare and cheap post-secondary education, and many other low income benefits this is a massive problem. "nine of 10 recent Chinese immigrants arrive in Metro Vancouver with enough money to immediately buy homes. But only half hold down jobs during their first five years in Canada, while four of 10 report they’re surviving on low incomes." https://vancouversun.com/opinion/columnists/douglas-todd-how-chinese-filipino-and-other-immigrants-differ https://vancouversun.com/opinion/columnists/douglas-todd-how... Ritzy Richmond neighbourhood where many are ‘poor’ http://www.vancouversun.com/business/Part+Ritzy+Richmond+neighbourhood+where+many+poor/11136169/story.html http://www.vancouversun.com/business/Part+Ritzy+Richmond+nei...
- mistermann 7y ago
  > But only half hold down jobs during their first five years I wonder how long it will be before the government decides to change their data format so immigrant employment numbers can no longer be associated with country of origin, under the guise of "privacy" or something like that.
  - andy_bandy 7y ago
    I don't think it's freely available right now. I think Hiebert only has access to it because of his credentials, position, and relationship with the Federal Government of Canada. "Hiebert, who frequently advises the federal government" https://vancouversun.com/opinion/columnists/douglas-todd-canadas-immigration-targets-a-form-of-housing-policy-says-study https://vancouversun.com/opinion/columnists/douglas-todd-can...
- msie 7y ago
  You are publishing opinion pieces from Douglas Todd, who is a syndicated conservative author who doesn’t like immigration. I wouldn’t take his articles at face value.
  - andy_bandy 7y ago
    The data is coming from government sources and is being analyzed by a UBC professor. Would you take that at face value? >Since Hiebert’s (University of B.C. geographer) Canadian research for the first time correlates 2016 census information with “landing data” provided by the federal immigration department

by rapind 7y ago

Tiktaalik 7y ago

The reason why the Feds ended their version of an investor immigration scheme is because a study found that refugees ended up paying more in income taxes than investor immigrants lmao. So yeah immigrants are great, but it has been abundantly clear that the rich persons buying citizenship are doing so just to have a passport of convenience and buy land as a safe investment and the gains for the rest of Canadian society from that are weak.

dsfyu404ed 7y ago
>a study found that refugees ended up paying more in income taxes than investor immigrants Citation? I mean, presumably there's a citable study out there somewhere. That immigrants in general pay in more taxes sounds plausible. That refugees are a greater net positive (taxes in minus benefits out) than investors, who are basically all wealthy enough to use minimal government services, seems like a stretch.
- Tiktaalik 7y ago
  There's a bunch of articles if you google the right words, but basically in 2014 Jason Kenny cancelled the program because a Canadian government data showed that millionaires weren't really hanging around and contributing. > According to CIC, investor immigrants reported average earnings of about $18,000 in their first year and just $28,000 after 15 years. After three years, only 47 per cent of such immigrants reported any income. The Canadian average is 67 per cent. > Meanwhile, refugees (those who come to Canada under hardship) reported first-year average incomes of $20,000 and after 15 years those incomes rose to $30,000. Two-thirds of refugees reported income by their fifth year, on par with Canada’s average. > After five years, only 39 per cent reported income, suggesting investor immigrants may leave the country (or declare non-residency) after the citizenship process is complete. https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/refugees-reporting-higher-earnings-in-canada-than-investor-immigrants https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/refugees-reporting-high...
damnyou 7y ago
Sounds like a good reason to soak all the rich, not just the foreign rich.
eps 7y ago
Canadian investor immigration scheme required purchasing government bonds and holding them, but only for certain amount of time. After that time they could sell bonds and get their money back. It was more of visa-for-a-loan program than anything else. Complete bullshit.

vkou 7y ago

Foreign capital, when it is invested in productive enterprise is good. It reduces the cost of borrowing money, which stimulates your economy, promotes value creation, etc. Assuming you believe that this sort of economic activity is a net good, that is. (And I think that even a dyed-in-the-wool socialist will agree, under the right tax system.) Foreign capital, when invested into a limited, rationed, speculative resource, that is also required for life - like say, housing, is a ----ing nightmare.

TomMarius 7y ago
The problem is not foreign capital but that someone thought that limiting housing construction would be a good idea
- vkou 7y ago
  Vancouver, SF, Seattle are all going through unprecedented construction booms. There are more active cranes in Seattle at the moment then there are anywhere in North America. This has not stopped housing costs from going through-the-roof. People are buying houses to speculate, new residents (foreign rich, or migrating techies) are buying houses with staggering amounts of money - amounts that existing residents could never hope to save up.
  - akavi 7y ago
    Except everything I can find says that Seattle real estate prices are in fact falling. [0] https://komonews.com/news/local/home-prices-dropping-in-the-seattle-metro-area-new-report-finds https://komonews.com/news/local/home-prices-dropping-in-the-... [1] https://www.seattletimes.com/business/real-estate/seattle-area-home-price-cooldown-stands-out-amid-u-s-cities/ https://www.seattletimes.com/business/real-estate/seattle-ar... [2] https://www.trulia.com/real_estate/Seattle-Washington/ https://www.trulia.com/real_estate/Seattle-Washington/
    - emanuensis 7y ago
      ...only at the high end. There is still a rapid shrinkage of space for ordinary folk...

jbay808 7y ago

Immigration would be great, I agree. One issue though is "astronaut families", where several family members (such as children) move to Canada, but the income-earning parents stay abroad and send money. Then they follow along when they retire. This can really distort things, because it's a lot of foreign capital coming in without the productive industry and income taxes being present. Then later it becomes a social services burden. Many of those kids do grow up to become awesome Canadians, so that's good though. But some of them choose to move back abroad after getting their citizenship and education, when it becomes time to work...

jseliger 7y ago

that's really bad for the locals Exporting housing services is a great business and a tremendous opportunity that is too rarely framed as such. https://slate.com/business/2013/05/exporting-housing-services-a-huge-economic-opportunity.html https://slate.com/business/2013/05/exporting-housing-service...

andy_bandy 7y ago

They don't pay income tax. In a country with free medicare and cheap post-secondary education, and many other low income benefits this is a massive problem. "nine of 10 recent Chinese immigrants arrive in Metro Vancouver with enough money to immediately buy homes. But only half hold down jobs during their first five years in Canada, while four of 10 report they’re surviving on low incomes." https://vancouversun.com/opinion/columnists/douglas-todd-how-chinese-filipino-and-other-immigrants-differ https://vancouversun.com/opinion/columnists/douglas-todd-how... Ritzy Richmond neighbourhood where many are ‘poor’ http://www.vancouversun.com/business/Part+Ritzy+Richmond+neighbourhood+where+many+poor/11136169/story.html http://www.vancouversun.com/business/Part+Ritzy+Richmond+nei...

mistermann 7y ago
> But only half hold down jobs during their first five years I wonder how long it will be before the government decides to change their data format so immigrant employment numbers can no longer be associated with country of origin, under the guise of "privacy" or something like that.
- andy_bandy 7y ago
  I don't think it's freely available right now. I think Hiebert only has access to it because of his credentials, position, and relationship with the Federal Government of Canada. "Hiebert, who frequently advises the federal government" https://vancouversun.com/opinion/columnists/douglas-todd-canadas-immigration-targets-a-form-of-housing-policy-says-study https://vancouversun.com/opinion/columnists/douglas-todd-can...
msie 7y ago
You are publishing opinion pieces from Douglas Todd, who is a syndicated conservative author who doesn’t like immigration. I wouldn’t take his articles at face value.
- andy_bandy 7y ago
  The data is coming from government sources and is being analyzed by a UBC professor. Would you take that at face value? >Since Hiebert’s (University of B.C. geographer) Canadian research for the first time correlates 2016 census information with “landing data” provided by the federal immigration department