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It's great, that you got to interview stage. What I mostly found that most discrimination happens before someone gets to the interview phase, which makes sense,

It's great, that you got to interview stage. What I mostly found that most discrimination happens before someone gets to the interview phase, which makes sense, as it makes interviewing cheaper. Most old people don't learn as many new things as younger ones, which makes it harder for older people who do to get the chance to prove themselves.

danielscrubs 7y ago
I'd say they already know the paradigms & architectures so they don't throw themselves at the latest fad as easily and above all seem to value family more highly and lets be honest. Back in the day you had to learn some pretty amazing tech (assembler and low memory data structures) just to get by. But yeah, just today there was a comment here on Hacker News saying (I'm paraphrasing): I learnt C then C++ then Java, then enough was enough. Which is just sad, that's like going from oatmeal to porrige.
- rubicon33 7y ago
  The flip side of that coin is the drain that comes from... Learning C, then C++, then Rust, then Java, then Ruby (rails), then Objective-C, then Swift, then JavaScript, then Angular, then React, then Flutter, then .... Depending on the timeframe in which all that learning happens, there's simply no way you can reach expert level with such a diversified knowledge base.
  - inlined 7y ago
    > there’s simply no way you can reach expert level with such a diversified codebases. What are you talking about? I’ve checked in production code in 4 languages in a day. Once you learn your first few languages you should be able to learn the new syntax of a language in a day or two and a good portion of their idioms in the next month (as you know more languages you’ll notice what’s unique about each language and glean idioms from online tutorials and your local codebases). Being a polyglot is a huge part of many in our industry, especially full stack development. For one project alone I had to work with a backend that was part Java and part Go that hosted customers’ Node backend. I oversaw client SDKs in Objective-C, Java, and C++ and helped prototype the server-side SDK for Go. That’s not fatigue, it’s enjoyable and a skill I can offer my team. Sure I get rusty with a language, but it doesn’t take long to blow off the dust with a skill.
sjg007 7y ago
>Most old people don't learn as many new things as younger ones ... are you sure about that? I'd avoid sweeping generalizations, it does not help your argument.
- lawnchair_larry 7y ago
  In a discussion about age discrimination, yes, sweeping generalizations do support the argument. He’s not wrong.
  - mcguire 7y ago
    By demonstrating age discrimination?
- derekp7 7y ago
  I've found that with myself, as I get older I get more selective with what new stuff I learned. I've seen so many fads come and go, and don't really have a whole lot of time ahead of me, so I need to make sure that what I learn really counts.
- xiphias2 7y ago
  As I'm getting older all my organs are working less, and my brain is slower as well (though I'm able to think just as deeply as before). At the same time I'm much more concious about spending my thinking energy, and because of my experience I'm making much more money than when I was younger _despite_ my slower thinking. Discrimination involves hate, and I definately not hate old people, just accept the facts of life (and I'm also hoping for a cure for aging).
  - MaxBarraclough 7y ago
    > Discrimination involves hate Not always, no. That would give an unworkably narrow definition.
rikroots 7y ago
Not my experience. I've learned how to tweak my resume to a job spec while at the same time not giving an impression of my age (getting a degree with the Open University in my 40s really helps with that). It's at the face to face interview stage that the wheels tend to fall off my cart - nothing I could prove as 'ageist' behaviour, more like they're disappointed in me (or discounting me) before we sit down to chat? "Most old people don't learn as many new things as younger ones..." - this is demonstrably ageist. People performing a mid-life career change can be as focussed and driven to succeed in IT as anyone; the determination to acquire and master new skills is, in my view, a personality thing, not an age-related thing.
- taurath 7y ago
  To some extent it could also be that you’re presenting as young? FWIW - My only concern with older folks is that they’re either jaded, stuck in their ways technologically, or obstinate towards being managed by people younger than them. Strong opinions held strongly is a net negative. This isn’t everyone or even a majority, but it’s quite a few.
  - rikroots 7y ago
    > they’re either jaded, stuck in their ways technologically, or obstinate towards being managed by people younger than them Again, (mostly) stereotyping: "jaded" - I'd argue this hits a lot of front end developers after about 5 years. How many new frameworks have there been in the last 5 years? There comes a point when any sane person will look at the newest "killer" framework and decide to wait a couple of years before investing time in learning it, just in case next year's "killer" framework turns out to be more fun to learn. "stuck in their ways" - this is more a personality thing, I think. Most people will find their comfort zone pretty quickly, and then get grumpy when asked/required to venture outside of it. Risk aversion and/or laziness doesn't, in my view, increase significantly with age. "obstinate towards being managed" - this one is a problem that everyone has to face as they grow older. The sad fact (from what I've seen in my age group) is that some people just cannot come to terms with the ageing process, that there's going to be younger people who are better placed to do a team-leader/manager job than they are (because: longer experience in the industry). But that is something that can be worked on - the important thing is to demonstrate a willingness to at least give it a go, offer support to the younger manager (be a wise owl, not an old owl), and be an excellent team player. At least that's my attitude.
jackhack 7y ago
>>Most old people don't learn as many new things as younger ones Most old people don't need to learn as many new things. It's called "experience."
- filoleg 7y ago
  You can call it “experience”, but that won’t help you find many TurboPascal jobs in 2019. At some point, experience is something that allows you to learn new things quicker and more efficiently, not something to be used as an excuse for not learning new things.
binthere 7y ago
You are the proof that there is age discrimination in interviews. If you are in tech there's a high chance you've been on the interviewer side and you already gave your opinion based on this bias.
gregfjohnson 7y ago
From what I've seen, some people are passionate voracious learners. This does not correlate with age. However, it may be harder to find these (very valuable) people among a younger population than an older one. If someone has slowed down in the area of constant learning, their existing knowledge may be more recent if they are younger. The "constant learner" signal stands out more prominently for older developers.
obtino 7y ago
Repeat these words to yourself when you're in the same situation one day. This is a prime example of ageism!
- xiphias2 7y ago
  I was in that situation, and had problems getting into company interviews....until I started using my connections

danielscrubs 7y ago

I'd say they already know the paradigms & architectures so they don't throw themselves at the latest fad as easily and above all seem to value family more highly and lets be honest. Back in the day you had to learn some pretty amazing tech (assembler and low memory data structures) just to get by. But yeah, just today there was a comment here on Hacker News saying (I'm paraphrasing): I learnt C then C++ then Java, then enough was enough. Which is just sad, that's like going from oatmeal to porrige.

rubicon33 7y ago
The flip side of that coin is the drain that comes from... Learning C, then C++, then Rust, then Java, then Ruby (rails), then Objective-C, then Swift, then JavaScript, then Angular, then React, then Flutter, then .... Depending on the timeframe in which all that learning happens, there's simply no way you can reach expert level with such a diversified knowledge base.
- inlined 7y ago
  > there’s simply no way you can reach expert level with such a diversified codebases. What are you talking about? I’ve checked in production code in 4 languages in a day. Once you learn your first few languages you should be able to learn the new syntax of a language in a day or two and a good portion of their idioms in the next month (as you know more languages you’ll notice what’s unique about each language and glean idioms from online tutorials and your local codebases). Being a polyglot is a huge part of many in our industry, especially full stack development. For one project alone I had to work with a backend that was part Java and part Go that hosted customers’ Node backend. I oversaw client SDKs in Objective-C, Java, and C++ and helped prototype the server-side SDK for Go. That’s not fatigue, it’s enjoyable and a skill I can offer my team. Sure I get rusty with a language, but it doesn’t take long to blow off the dust with a skill.

sjg007 7y ago

>Most old people don't learn as many new things as younger ones ... are you sure about that? I'd avoid sweeping generalizations, it does not help your argument.

lawnchair_larry 7y ago
In a discussion about age discrimination, yes, sweeping generalizations do support the argument. He’s not wrong.
- mcguire 7y ago
  By demonstrating age discrimination?
derekp7 7y ago
I've found that with myself, as I get older I get more selective with what new stuff I learned. I've seen so many fads come and go, and don't really have a whole lot of time ahead of me, so I need to make sure that what I learn really counts.
xiphias2 7y ago
As I'm getting older all my organs are working less, and my brain is slower as well (though I'm able to think just as deeply as before). At the same time I'm much more concious about spending my thinking energy, and because of my experience I'm making much more money than when I was younger _despite_ my slower thinking. Discrimination involves hate, and I definately not hate old people, just accept the facts of life (and I'm also hoping for a cure for aging).
- MaxBarraclough 7y ago
  > Discrimination involves hate Not always, no. That would give an unworkably narrow definition.

rikroots 7y ago

Not my experience. I've learned how to tweak my resume to a job spec while at the same time not giving an impression of my age (getting a degree with the Open University in my 40s really helps with that). It's at the face to face interview stage that the wheels tend to fall off my cart - nothing I could prove as 'ageist' behaviour, more like they're disappointed in me (or discounting me) before we sit down to chat? "Most old people don't learn as many new things as younger ones..." - this is demonstrably ageist. People performing a mid-life career change can be as focussed and driven to succeed in IT as anyone; the determination to acquire and master new skills is, in my view, a personality thing, not an age-related thing.

taurath 7y ago
To some extent it could also be that you’re presenting as young? FWIW - My only concern with older folks is that they’re either jaded, stuck in their ways technologically, or obstinate towards being managed by people younger than them. Strong opinions held strongly is a net negative. This isn’t everyone or even a majority, but it’s quite a few.
- rikroots 7y ago
  > they’re either jaded, stuck in their ways technologically, or obstinate towards being managed by people younger than them Again, (mostly) stereotyping: "jaded" - I'd argue this hits a lot of front end developers after about 5 years. How many new frameworks have there been in the last 5 years? There comes a point when any sane person will look at the newest "killer" framework and decide to wait a couple of years before investing time in learning it, just in case next year's "killer" framework turns out to be more fun to learn. "stuck in their ways" - this is more a personality thing, I think. Most people will find their comfort zone pretty quickly, and then get grumpy when asked/required to venture outside of it. Risk aversion and/or laziness doesn't, in my view, increase significantly with age. "obstinate towards being managed" - this one is a problem that everyone has to face as they grow older. The sad fact (from what I've seen in my age group) is that some people just cannot come to terms with the ageing process, that there's going to be younger people who are better placed to do a team-leader/manager job than they are (because: longer experience in the industry). But that is something that can be worked on - the important thing is to demonstrate a willingness to at least give it a go, offer support to the younger manager (be a wise owl, not an old owl), and be an excellent team player. At least that's my attitude.

jackhack 7y ago

>>Most old people don't learn as many new things as younger ones Most old people don't need to learn as many new things. It's called "experience."

filoleg 7y ago
You can call it “experience”, but that won’t help you find many TurboPascal jobs in 2019. At some point, experience is something that allows you to learn new things quicker and more efficiently, not something to be used as an excuse for not learning new things.

binthere 7y ago

You are the proof that there is age discrimination in interviews. If you are in tech there's a high chance you've been on the interviewer side and you already gave your opinion based on this bias.

gregfjohnson 7y ago

From what I've seen, some people are passionate voracious learners. This does not correlate with age. However, it may be harder to find these (very valuable) people among a younger population than an older one. If someone has slowed down in the area of constant learning, their existing knowledge may be more recent if they are younger. The "constant learner" signal stands out more prominently for older developers.

obtino 7y ago

Repeat these words to yourself when you're in the same situation one day. This is a prime example of ageism!

xiphias2 7y ago
I was in that situation, and had problems getting into company interviews....until I started using my connections