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It's pretty surreal watching this conflict play out. I'm still shocked this is happening on the international stage and other nations are unwilling to take sid

It's pretty surreal watching this conflict play out. I'm still shocked this is happening on the international stage and other nations are unwilling to take sides in the conflict. I wonder what happens when the tension comes to a precipice and China sends in security forces to "maintain the peace". I hope for Hong Kong and the global economy's sake, it doesn't come to that. Although it seems like that's exactly what the Chinese state government is gearing up for.

vkou 7y ago
> It's pretty surreal watching this conflict play out. I'm still shocked this is happening on the international stage and other nations are unwilling to take sides in the conflict. Are you equally shocked that other nations are unwilling to take sides in the various political conflicts that we've lived through in the past decade in the United States? Generally, it's prudent, in the geopolitical arena, for nation states to keep their noses out of other nations' domestic politics.
- caust1c 7y ago
  Fair enough. I'm very curious what will happen in the coming weeks. I hope both nations come to a peaceful agreement to allow for continued autonomy in Hong Kong.
  - mirimir 7y ago
    Which "both nations"?
- Qworg 7y ago
  I would disagree that our on street political conflicts are at the same level with internal citizens. We don't have protests at the same scale, nor organized crime being hired to beat people.
  - vkou 7y ago
    You disagree because I assume, given the typical HN audience, that you live in a bubble of relative privilege, compared to the issues faced by African Americans (Ferguson), Native Americans (Land wars over pipelines), illegal aliens (ICE raids, DACA status), and Middle America (a Mad-Max style economic and social collapse, that had lead to an overflow of anger and frustration, and a political revolution, culminating in the election of DT.) Of course none of these things seem like a big deal to you. You aren't one of the people on the front lines of these conflicts. Notice how you don't see foreign leaders like Justin Trudeau, or Angela Merkel picking sides in these issues. That's because whatever their opinions on these matters might be, they don't want to piss off the the winner in these conflicts. And yes, we absolutely have organized crime that is hired to beat people - what do you think happens at any of the large protests/demonstrations where the police are found to have engaged in illegal use of force? Just because the criminals wear uniforms doesn't mean they aren't criminals.
  - mirimir 7y ago
    I presume that you mean the Triads? > The white-clad activists are suspected to be linked to local organized crime gangs known as triads that operate in the villages on Hong Kong’s more remote fringes, a Hong Kong Democratic Party official told The Wall Street Journal. I gather that the Triads have had a long and complex relationship with Chinese governments. Going back centuries. So I think that there's more to it than hiring criminals. But I'm not clear just what it is.
- lostlogin 7y ago
  Have you noticed the reception Trump gets when outside the US? Or overseas reactions to his comments, often from senior government officials? It’s been front page news regularly, most recently regarding the UKs ambassador.
  - vkou 7y ago
    The vast majority of the time, it's tabloids trying their best to find photographs where he looks like a moron, or the people who are talking to him look pissed off. The politicians he interacts with are, for the most part, smart enough to keep their opinions about his character to themselves... At least, when he's within earshot. If you recall the election, nearly any time some foreign leader was asked about Trump/Hillary, their response would be the inevitable 'We are going to work with whomever wins.'
- dragonwriter 7y ago
  > Are you equally shocked that other nations are unwilling to take sides in the various political conflicts that we've lived through in the past decade in the United States? Other nations (and international bodies like the UN) have voiced fairly strong opinions on various internal US policy controversies in the last several years.
  - vkou 7y ago
    1. Other nations critique foreign policy, but rarely domestic policy. 2. Exactly how much of a care does the citizenry & political leaders give about some UN sub-committee condemning the US?
CountSessine 7y ago
I don't understand what you think other nations are supposed to do? Or what influence they can possibly have? Hong Kong is Chinese territory - really, they can do whatever they want there. This is the same regime that is holding as many as a million Uyghurs in concentration camps right now. One interesting constraint that Beijing is operating under, though, is Taiwan. The government has argued in favor of reunification for years now, under a similar one-nation-two-systems framework. If they send the tanks and the shock-troops in to Hong Kong, then no one can deny that that's all bullshit.
- nostromo 7y ago
  China would be risking sanctions. Given that their economy is already slowing (dramatically faster than the official numbers by many reports) and their massive debt loads -- sanctions could pack a real punch.
  - loyukfai 7y ago
    Personally I don't think other countries are willing to sanction China just for Hong Kong. But it is a piece on the chessboard, for sure.
- CogitoCogito 7y ago
  > If they send the tanks and the shock-troops in to Hong Kong, then no one can deny that that's all bullshit. Of course people can still deny it. Tiananmen Square happened after all. The PRC has never governed Taiwan yet essentially no governments call their imperialism what it is and tacitly accept their “unification” language. At the end of the day countries can argue up is down if money is involved.
  - underthebus 7y ago
    > The PRC has never governed Taiwan yet essentially no governments call their imperialism what it is and tacitly accept their “unification” language. Taiwan is internationally recognised as being part of China. What happened is that the Chinese government of the time fled there during the civil war. The communists founded the PRC and the ROC government kept control of Taiwan. Since then the question has been who to recognise as legitimate government. And this has changed over time. What you're saying is like saying that South Korea never governed the North (or vice versa) or that East Germany never governed West Germany (or vice versa). While obviously factually true this does not diminish the fact that they are part of Korea or Germany as a whole. 'reunification' is the correct term, it's nothing to do with colonisation (what imperialism relates to).
deogeo 7y ago
> other nations are unwilling to take sides in the conflict. As soon as a foreign nation takes sides, then those in the country on the same side can be easily cast as collaborators, or just tools of the foreign nation. E.g. it turns Protesters vs. Chinese Government into Tools of US Imperialism vs. China.
- loyukfai 7y ago
  Foreign interferences have long been the main talking point of CCP and HK establishment, but it's mostly a smokescreen or misjudgement of the current protests, if you ask me.
billfruit 7y ago
By how the West seems to precipitate trouble without no clear end game in sight as in Venezuela, Syria and other places, international actors getting involved can only mean moving farther away from solutions. There is a famous commencement address of Solzhenitsyn delivered at Harvard, I think in the 80s, illustrating how West seems to deeply misunderstand Eastern cultures, but it seems to me, we are where were then, and nothing has been learned.
- baxtr 7y ago
  So “other states” has now become “the West”?
loyukfai 7y ago
I'd say no, deploying the garrison troops would hurt the HK economy, big time. It's not likely something China is willing to afford at this moment, she's got her hands mostly full already. And the most radical of the protesters aren't getting what they want (independence) anytime soon, if ever. I'd say the CCP would keep trying to deal with it with domestic assets for the time being.
mnm1 7y ago
Given other nations' track record in places like Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, and other places in Asia, thank fucking god they're not taking sides, especially the insane US. The last thing we need is another unwinnable, stupid, pseudo war based on bullshit and lies. If the Chinese wise up and decide to get rid of the commies themselves, great! But it shouldn't be up to other countries to interfere and fuck things up yet again because they are only interested in their own agenda, especially the madmen leading the US.
La-ang 7y ago
That's something to worry about. The mayhem will give China a card to play in getting deeply involved, and a scenario where the US will again get poetical as in with Taiwan. Picture Trump again claiming "support for the Hong Kong people" just to revive his image and annoy Xi, while intensifying trade talks. We can see here the cons of decentralisation to such an anarchy; there is no common ground and whether it's a peaceful march or sheer destruction of public property, China will all put it under the same umbrella.

vkou 7y ago

> It's pretty surreal watching this conflict play out. I'm still shocked this is happening on the international stage and other nations are unwilling to take sides in the conflict. Are you equally shocked that other nations are unwilling to take sides in the various political conflicts that we've lived through in the past decade in the United States? Generally, it's prudent, in the geopolitical arena, for nation states to keep their noses out of other nations' domestic politics.

caust1c 7y ago
Fair enough. I'm very curious what will happen in the coming weeks. I hope both nations come to a peaceful agreement to allow for continued autonomy in Hong Kong.
- mirimir 7y ago
  Which "both nations"?
Qworg 7y ago
I would disagree that our on street political conflicts are at the same level with internal citizens. We don't have protests at the same scale, nor organized crime being hired to beat people.
- vkou 7y ago
  You disagree because I assume, given the typical HN audience, that you live in a bubble of relative privilege, compared to the issues faced by African Americans (Ferguson), Native Americans (Land wars over pipelines), illegal aliens (ICE raids, DACA status), and Middle America (a Mad-Max style economic and social collapse, that had lead to an overflow of anger and frustration, and a political revolution, culminating in the election of DT.) Of course none of these things seem like a big deal to you. You aren't one of the people on the front lines of these conflicts. Notice how you don't see foreign leaders like Justin Trudeau, or Angela Merkel picking sides in these issues. That's because whatever their opinions on these matters might be, they don't want to piss off the the winner in these conflicts. And yes, we absolutely have organized crime that is hired to beat people - what do you think happens at any of the large protests/demonstrations where the police are found to have engaged in illegal use of force? Just because the criminals wear uniforms doesn't mean they aren't criminals.
- mirimir 7y ago
  I presume that you mean the Triads? > The white-clad activists are suspected to be linked to local organized crime gangs known as triads that operate in the villages on Hong Kong’s more remote fringes, a Hong Kong Democratic Party official told The Wall Street Journal. I gather that the Triads have had a long and complex relationship with Chinese governments. Going back centuries. So I think that there's more to it than hiring criminals. But I'm not clear just what it is.
lostlogin 7y ago
Have you noticed the reception Trump gets when outside the US? Or overseas reactions to his comments, often from senior government officials? It’s been front page news regularly, most recently regarding the UKs ambassador.
- vkou 7y ago
  The vast majority of the time, it's tabloids trying their best to find photographs where he looks like a moron, or the people who are talking to him look pissed off. The politicians he interacts with are, for the most part, smart enough to keep their opinions about his character to themselves... At least, when he's within earshot. If you recall the election, nearly any time some foreign leader was asked about Trump/Hillary, their response would be the inevitable 'We are going to work with whomever wins.'
dragonwriter 7y ago
> Are you equally shocked that other nations are unwilling to take sides in the various political conflicts that we've lived through in the past decade in the United States? Other nations (and international bodies like the UN) have voiced fairly strong opinions on various internal US policy controversies in the last several years.
- vkou 7y ago
  1. Other nations critique foreign policy, but rarely domestic policy. 2. Exactly how much of a care does the citizenry & political leaders give about some UN sub-committee condemning the US?

CountSessine 7y ago

I don't understand what you think other nations are supposed to do? Or what influence they can possibly have? Hong Kong is Chinese territory - really, they can do whatever they want there. This is the same regime that is holding as many as a million Uyghurs in concentration camps right now. One interesting constraint that Beijing is operating under, though, is Taiwan. The government has argued in favor of reunification for years now, under a similar one-nation-two-systems framework. If they send the tanks and the shock-troops in to Hong Kong, then no one can deny that that's all bullshit.

nostromo 7y ago
China would be risking sanctions. Given that their economy is already slowing (dramatically faster than the official numbers by many reports) and their massive debt loads -- sanctions could pack a real punch.
- loyukfai 7y ago
  Personally I don't think other countries are willing to sanction China just for Hong Kong. But it is a piece on the chessboard, for sure.
CogitoCogito 7y ago
> If they send the tanks and the shock-troops in to Hong Kong, then no one can deny that that's all bullshit. Of course people can still deny it. Tiananmen Square happened after all. The PRC has never governed Taiwan yet essentially no governments call their imperialism what it is and tacitly accept their “unification” language. At the end of the day countries can argue up is down if money is involved.
- underthebus 7y ago
  > The PRC has never governed Taiwan yet essentially no governments call their imperialism what it is and tacitly accept their “unification” language. Taiwan is internationally recognised as being part of China. What happened is that the Chinese government of the time fled there during the civil war. The communists founded the PRC and the ROC government kept control of Taiwan. Since then the question has been who to recognise as legitimate government. And this has changed over time. What you're saying is like saying that South Korea never governed the North (or vice versa) or that East Germany never governed West Germany (or vice versa). While obviously factually true this does not diminish the fact that they are part of Korea or Germany as a whole. 'reunification' is the correct term, it's nothing to do with colonisation (what imperialism relates to).

deogeo 7y ago

> other nations are unwilling to take sides in the conflict. As soon as a foreign nation takes sides, then those in the country on the same side can be easily cast as collaborators, or just tools of the foreign nation. E.g. it turns Protesters vs. Chinese Government into Tools of US Imperialism vs. China.

loyukfai 7y ago
Foreign interferences have long been the main talking point of CCP and HK establishment, but it's mostly a smokescreen or misjudgement of the current protests, if you ask me.

billfruit 7y ago

By how the West seems to precipitate trouble without no clear end game in sight as in Venezuela, Syria and other places, international actors getting involved can only mean moving farther away from solutions. There is a famous commencement address of Solzhenitsyn delivered at Harvard, I think in the 80s, illustrating how West seems to deeply misunderstand Eastern cultures, but it seems to me, we are where were then, and nothing has been learned.

baxtr 7y ago
So “other states” has now become “the West”?

loyukfai 7y ago

I'd say no, deploying the garrison troops would hurt the HK economy, big time. It's not likely something China is willing to afford at this moment, she's got her hands mostly full already. And the most radical of the protesters aren't getting what they want (independence) anytime soon, if ever. I'd say the CCP would keep trying to deal with it with domestic assets for the time being.

mnm1 7y ago

Given other nations' track record in places like Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, and other places in Asia, thank fucking god they're not taking sides, especially the insane US. The last thing we need is another unwinnable, stupid, pseudo war based on bullshit and lies. If the Chinese wise up and decide to get rid of the commies themselves, great! But it shouldn't be up to other countries to interfere and fuck things up yet again because they are only interested in their own agenda, especially the madmen leading the US.

La-ang 7y ago

That's something to worry about. The mayhem will give China a card to play in getting deeply involved, and a scenario where the US will again get poetical as in with Taiwan. Picture Trump again claiming "support for the Hong Kong people" just to revive his image and annoy Xi, while intensifying trade talks. We can see here the cons of decentralisation to such an anarchy; there is no common ground and whether it's a peaceful march or sheer destruction of public property, China will all put it under the same umbrella.