8 ms·

> But Canada closed its federal programme in 2014 (some provincial schemes, such as Quebec’s, continue). Only mentioned as an aside, but for Vancouverites, thi

> But Canada closed its federal programme in 2014 (some provincial schemes, such as Quebec’s, continue). Only mentioned as an aside, but for Vancouverites, this has been very painful. Uniquely Quebec manages its own immigration (let's not get into it) and they have an investor immigration scheme that essentially sells citizenship for a pittance. Of course since persons have freedom of movement there's nothing stopping persons who buy citizenship in Quebec for moving to Vancouver, which almost all of them do. Accordingly while British Columbia has enacted various foreign investor taxes to try to limit the distortions from foreign money on the real estate market, there remain significant impacts of foreign wealth in Vancouver and BC. Sadly federal politicians aren't in much of a rush to annoy the Quebec government by playing hardball on this issue as Canada has an election coming up and Quebec has heaps of seats in play.

scarejunba 7y ago
You have to invest $1.2 million and have a net worth of at least $2 million, right? I wouldn't call that a pittance.
- thooranpoyi 7y ago
  It will be given back without interest. So not an investment but an interest free loan.
- throwaway2048 7y ago
  Buying real estate counts as "investment" and with the Quebec program, there is zero risk because that 1.2 million is fully guaranteed.
rapind 7y ago
My belief has always been foreign capital (speculation) is bad, but immigration is good. So if you want to move here and bring all that foreign capital great! If you want to speculate or park money in Canadian real estate (empty houses and condos) that's really bad for the locals. It never should have been allowed.
- Tiktaalik 7y ago
  The reason why the Feds ended their version of an investor immigration scheme is because a study found that refugees ended up paying more in income taxes than investor immigrants lmao. So yeah immigrants are great, but it has been abundantly clear that the rich persons buying citizenship are doing so just to have a passport of convenience and buy land as a safe investment and the gains for the rest of Canadian society from that are weak.
  - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
    >a study found that refugees ended up paying more in income taxes than investor immigrants Citation? I mean, presumably there's a citable study out there somewhere. That immigrants in general pay in more taxes sounds plausible. That refugees are a greater net positive (taxes in minus benefits out) than investors, who are basically all wealthy enough to use minimal government services, seems like a stretch.
    - Tiktaalik 7y ago
      There's a bunch of articles if you google the right words, but basically in 2014 Jason Kenny cancelled the program because a Canadian government data showed that millionaires weren't really hanging around and contributing. > According to CIC, investor immigrants reported average earnings of about $18,000 in their first year and just $28,000 after 15 years. After three years, only 47 per cent of such immigrants reported any income. The Canadian average is 67 per cent. > Meanwhile, refugees (those who come to Canada under hardship) reported first-year average incomes of $20,000 and after 15 years those incomes rose to $30,000. Two-thirds of refugees reported income by their fifth year, on par with Canada’s average. > After five years, only 39 per cent reported income, suggesting investor immigrants may leave the country (or declare non-residency) after the citizenship process is complete. https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/refugees-reporting-higher-earnings-in-canada-than-investor-immigrants https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/refugees-reporting-high...
  - damnyou 7y ago
    Sounds like a good reason to soak all the rich, not just the foreign rich.
thooranpoyi 7y ago
Feds can't and won't do anything about it. It's etched on "Canada Québec accord". That's why Québec is infamous for bad immigration practices like QIIP. Recently they cancelled 18,000 applications and is trying to impose a French culture values test and deportations. An immigrant's kid in Québec is forced to attend French language school. Québec is indirectly responsible for BC housing bubble.
jseliger 7y ago
If we only had a technology that could be used to build more housing units on a given plot of land, we could probably build as many housing units as people want to buy. Until such technologies emerge from the land of science fiction, we'll be stuck with shortages, because the problems are really technical, not legal. https://www.vox.com/a/new-economy-future/urban-sprawl-housing-costs-solutions-elevators https://www.vox.com/a/new-economy-future/urban-sprawl-housin...
- carapace 7y ago
  Bucky fuller, Dymaxion House, circa 1930: > The Dymaxion House was developed by inventor and architect Buckminster Fuller to address several perceived shortcomings with existing homebuilding techniques. Fuller designed several versions of the house at different times — all of them factory manufactured kits, assembled on site, intended to be suitable for any site or environment and to use resources efficiently. A key design consideration of the design was ease of shipment and assembly. ~ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dymaxion_house https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dymaxion_house Nearly a century later... "Prefab housing complex for UC Berkeley students goes up in four days" Aug., 2018 ~ https://www.berkeleyside.com/2018/08/02/prefab-housing-complex-for-uc-berkeley-students-built-in-four-days https://www.berkeleyside.com/2018/08/02/prefab-housing-compl... An interesting detail: "Kennedy notes that the cost of trucking to Berkeley from the port of Oakland was more expensive than the cost of shipping from Hong Kong."
- mistermann 7y ago
  A housing bubble based on domestic demand is dangerous enough, adding in who knows how much foreign demand on top of that, if it was to pop it could be more than doubly impactful. Before we go on a building spree, I say we should get a decent handle on the total amount of foreign money in play.
  - wharnal 7y ago
    You're right, it'd be a real tragedy if they built too many homes and just anyone could afford to live in Vancouver.
munk-a 7y ago
I think this is confusion of two pretty distinct things, I'm fine with affluence being a metric in the immigration process (especially if, as with Canada, the government directly profits from the temporary use of that money) - the issue in Vancouver more lies in the usage of vacant properties to park money from overseas, since cities suffer from having artificially lowered vacancies it is pretty proper that a vacancy tax is leveraged on these properties to recoup the lost value - the issue here is mostly that the prior Premier worked to block such a tax repeatedly, we now have the tax in place though it's implementation is still having some growing pains. Thus we're getting some utility out of recouping lost value from the tax, but the disincentive the tax would have represented has come in too late to avoid the huge property value spike, ideally we'll see those inflated values decrease somewhat as real estate as a savings account becomes less attractive and starts depreciating the parked value quicker. There is also the issue that it's hard to audit residency currently.
walshemj 7y ago
I got pitched at silicon milkabout in the UK about moving to Quebec as a developer.
thatfrenchguy 7y ago
> Uniquely Quebec manages its own immigration (let's not get into it) and they have an investor immigration scheme that essentially sells citizenship for a pittance Their website say 1.2M$ ? That’s a pittance ?
- CatThe 7y ago
  In other words, If you buy one house you can have citizenship.
  - moltar 7y ago
    In QC that’d be 4 houses.
barry-cotter 7y ago
> Uniquely Quebec manages its own immigration That Quebec is the only province that avails itself of the opportunity to attract immigrants to itself rather than relying on the federal government is to its credit. If the Anglophone provinces don’t feel like exercising the powers they and Quebec share that’s their problem, not Quebec’s.
- jbay808 7y ago
  If Quebec were only using their policy to attract immigrants to Quebec, I don't think any other provinces would have an issue with it.
vinay427 7y ago
> Uniquely Quebec manages its own immigration (let's not get into it) and they have an investor immigration scheme that essentially sells citizenship for a pittance. Of course since persons have freedom of movement there's nothing stopping persons who buy citizenship in Quebec for moving to Vancouver, which almost all of them do. Most every province seems to have some sort of provincial nominee program in place for granting permanent residence. They're just not usually designed for investors. Example of Ontario: https://www.ontario.ca/page/ontario-immigrant-nominee-program-oinp https://www.ontario.ca/page/ontario-immigrant-nominee-progra...
- grecy 7y ago
  > Most every province seems to have some sort of provincial nominee program in place for granting permanent residence. They're just not usually designed for investors. I went through the program (I'm a PR now). It takes many years, and then many years again to get citizenship. You have to work, etc. It's not even close to the same as the old "investor" program which was literally buy citizenship if you are rich.
moltar 7y ago
Actually QC did implement changes: - limited country representation to a X% only - added a law that enforces that immigrants are intending to reside in QC and even now must learn French - investment amount was raised

scarejunba 7y ago

You have to invest $1.2 million and have a net worth of at least $2 million, right? I wouldn't call that a pittance.

thooranpoyi 7y ago
It will be given back without interest. So not an investment but an interest free loan.
throwaway2048 7y ago
Buying real estate counts as "investment" and with the Quebec program, there is zero risk because that 1.2 million is fully guaranteed.

rapind 7y ago

My belief has always been foreign capital (speculation) is bad, but immigration is good. So if you want to move here and bring all that foreign capital great! If you want to speculate or park money in Canadian real estate (empty houses and condos) that's really bad for the locals. It never should have been allowed.

Tiktaalik 7y ago
The reason why the Feds ended their version of an investor immigration scheme is because a study found that refugees ended up paying more in income taxes than investor immigrants lmao. So yeah immigrants are great, but it has been abundantly clear that the rich persons buying citizenship are doing so just to have a passport of convenience and buy land as a safe investment and the gains for the rest of Canadian society from that are weak.
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  >a study found that refugees ended up paying more in income taxes than investor immigrants Citation? I mean, presumably there's a citable study out there somewhere. That immigrants in general pay in more taxes sounds plausible. That refugees are a greater net positive (taxes in minus benefits out) than investors, who are basically all wealthy enough to use minimal government services, seems like a stretch.
  - Tiktaalik 7y ago
    There's a bunch of articles if you google the right words, but basically in 2014 Jason Kenny cancelled the program because a Canadian government data showed that millionaires weren't really hanging around and contributing. > According to CIC, investor immigrants reported average earnings of about $18,000 in their first year and just $28,000 after 15 years. After three years, only 47 per cent of such immigrants reported any income. The Canadian average is 67 per cent. > Meanwhile, refugees (those who come to Canada under hardship) reported first-year average incomes of $20,000 and after 15 years those incomes rose to $30,000. Two-thirds of refugees reported income by their fifth year, on par with Canada’s average. > After five years, only 39 per cent reported income, suggesting investor immigrants may leave the country (or declare non-residency) after the citizenship process is complete. https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/refugees-reporting-higher-earnings-in-canada-than-investor-immigrants https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/refugees-reporting-high...
- damnyou 7y ago
  Sounds like a good reason to soak all the rich, not just the foreign rich.

thooranpoyi 7y ago

Feds can't and won't do anything about it. It's etched on "Canada Québec accord". That's why Québec is infamous for bad immigration practices like QIIP. Recently they cancelled 18,000 applications and is trying to impose a French culture values test and deportations. An immigrant's kid in Québec is forced to attend French language school. Québec is indirectly responsible for BC housing bubble.

jseliger 7y ago

If we only had a technology that could be used to build more housing units on a given plot of land, we could probably build as many housing units as people want to buy. Until such technologies emerge from the land of science fiction, we'll be stuck with shortages, because the problems are really technical, not legal. https://www.vox.com/a/new-economy-future/urban-sprawl-housing-costs-solutions-elevators https://www.vox.com/a/new-economy-future/urban-sprawl-housin...

carapace 7y ago
Bucky fuller, Dymaxion House, circa 1930: > The Dymaxion House was developed by inventor and architect Buckminster Fuller to address several perceived shortcomings with existing homebuilding techniques. Fuller designed several versions of the house at different times — all of them factory manufactured kits, assembled on site, intended to be suitable for any site or environment and to use resources efficiently. A key design consideration of the design was ease of shipment and assembly. ~ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dymaxion_house https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dymaxion_house Nearly a century later... "Prefab housing complex for UC Berkeley students goes up in four days" Aug., 2018 ~ https://www.berkeleyside.com/2018/08/02/prefab-housing-complex-for-uc-berkeley-students-built-in-four-days https://www.berkeleyside.com/2018/08/02/prefab-housing-compl... An interesting detail: "Kennedy notes that the cost of trucking to Berkeley from the port of Oakland was more expensive than the cost of shipping from Hong Kong."
mistermann 7y ago
A housing bubble based on domestic demand is dangerous enough, adding in who knows how much foreign demand on top of that, if it was to pop it could be more than doubly impactful. Before we go on a building spree, I say we should get a decent handle on the total amount of foreign money in play.
- wharnal 7y ago
  You're right, it'd be a real tragedy if they built too many homes and just anyone could afford to live in Vancouver.

munk-a 7y ago

I think this is confusion of two pretty distinct things, I'm fine with affluence being a metric in the immigration process (especially if, as with Canada, the government directly profits from the temporary use of that money) - the issue in Vancouver more lies in the usage of vacant properties to park money from overseas, since cities suffer from having artificially lowered vacancies it is pretty proper that a vacancy tax is leveraged on these properties to recoup the lost value - the issue here is mostly that the prior Premier worked to block such a tax repeatedly, we now have the tax in place though it's implementation is still having some growing pains. Thus we're getting some utility out of recouping lost value from the tax, but the disincentive the tax would have represented has come in too late to avoid the huge property value spike, ideally we'll see those inflated values decrease somewhat as real estate as a savings account becomes less attractive and starts depreciating the parked value quicker. There is also the issue that it's hard to audit residency currently.

walshemj 7y ago

I got pitched at silicon milkabout in the UK about moving to Quebec as a developer.

thatfrenchguy 7y ago

> Uniquely Quebec manages its own immigration (let's not get into it) and they have an investor immigration scheme that essentially sells citizenship for a pittance Their website say 1.2M$ ? That’s a pittance ?

CatThe 7y ago
In other words, If you buy one house you can have citizenship.
- moltar 7y ago
  In QC that’d be 4 houses.

barry-cotter 7y ago

> Uniquely Quebec manages its own immigration That Quebec is the only province that avails itself of the opportunity to attract immigrants to itself rather than relying on the federal government is to its credit. If the Anglophone provinces don’t feel like exercising the powers they and Quebec share that’s their problem, not Quebec’s.

jbay808 7y ago
If Quebec were only using their policy to attract immigrants to Quebec, I don't think any other provinces would have an issue with it.

vinay427 7y ago

> Uniquely Quebec manages its own immigration (let's not get into it) and they have an investor immigration scheme that essentially sells citizenship for a pittance. Of course since persons have freedom of movement there's nothing stopping persons who buy citizenship in Quebec for moving to Vancouver, which almost all of them do. Most every province seems to have some sort of provincial nominee program in place for granting permanent residence. They're just not usually designed for investors. Example of Ontario: https://www.ontario.ca/page/ontario-immigrant-nominee-program-oinp https://www.ontario.ca/page/ontario-immigrant-nominee-progra...

grecy 7y ago
> Most every province seems to have some sort of provincial nominee program in place for granting permanent residence. They're just not usually designed for investors. I went through the program (I'm a PR now). It takes many years, and then many years again to get citizenship. You have to work, etc. It's not even close to the same as the old "investor" program which was literally buy citizenship if you are rich.

moltar 7y ago

Actually QC did implement changes: - limited country representation to a X% only - added a law that enforces that immigrants are intending to reside in QC and even now must learn French - investment amount was raised