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There's also a lot of value in the research NASA/JAXA/ESA/Roscosmos does in space. Some experiments are only really doable under long term microgravity The US r

by rtkwe 7y ago

There's also a lot of value in the research NASA/JAXA/ESA/Roscosmos does in space. Some experiments are only really doable under long term microgravity The US runs it as a national lab and many companies use it for experiments. Maintaining it that way makes it way easier for companies to run experiments in space, with out the ISS each company would have to design, build and launch their own satellite for each experiment they wanted to do. That could be done but it would be very complex and quite fragile compared to having an established station where humans can do the work.

Retric 7y ago
The catch 22 is any experiment that you can only do in microgravity is also only really relevant in microgravity. That’s fine if we have a larger goal, but not really useful on it’s own. Sure simply learning this stuff is interesting, but the costs are so extreme it’s effectively a vanity project.
- mcguire 7y ago
  You could say the same thing about experimental high-energy physics.
- jemorya 7y ago
  I'm not sure that the information from such experiments is only really relevant to applications in microgravity environments. (Hopefully I'm not misunderstanding your point too much.) The data points from microgravity experiments don't exist in isolation; presumably there are data points for similar experiments at surface gravity. Removing gravity from a system could say very much about how gravity affects the system, and thus how the system works on Earth. We also might discover effects so important that it would be worth going to microgravity to get them. Stepping out into the unknown just to learn how it works is important. (Disclaimer: I know jack about what kind of microgravity experiments are going on.)
- greglindahl 7y ago
  This generalization isn't true. One modern example is manufacturing optical fibers like ZBLAN[1] -- they work great when you bring them back to Earth. Another new example is 3d printing organs in microgravity[2] to take them back to Earth. The traditional example is doing basic physics that needs long duration microgravity. These sorts of research aren't a large fraction of what's currently done on the ISS, but it's also not zero. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZBLAN https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZBLAN 2: https://www.asme.org/topics-resources/content/growing-human-organs-in-space https://www.asme.org/topics-resources/content/growing-human-...
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - Retric 7y ago
    The need for microgravity to manufacture these things is demonstrating my point.
    - greglindahl 7y ago
      Then I totally didn't get your point. These are things that you manufacture in microgravity that are then usable in gravity. Isn't that what you said did not exist?
      - Retric 7y ago
        I am saying testing say crystal formation in space is only relevant for crystal formation in space. If that’s what you’re going to do aka manufacturing in space then sure experimenting in space is required. Getting the economics to look promising for actually manufacturing in space then that’s a separate thing. Aka Manufacturing would be that larger goal I was referencing.
        rtkwe 7y ago
        It's not though the crystals are used to determine the structure of the molecule itself through XRay crystallography. We have to grow larger crystals that are then used to determine the shape of the individual molecules. Some crystalize easily and we were able to study them using crystals grown here on Earth but others were more difficult and had to be grown in space. Just because the research takes place in space doesn't mean it's only applicable in space!
- bbojan 7y ago
  Researchers discover cool-burning flames in space that could lead to better engines here on earth https://jacobsschool.ucsd.edu/news/news_releases/release.sfe?id=1548 https://jacobsschool.ucsd.edu/news/news_releases/release.sfe...
- rtkwe 7y ago
  Actually not true in the slightest. Microgravity removes one more confounding variable present in all experiments gravity. One example, in addition to those already mentioned, is crystallography; where it's much easier to grow the crystals we need for experiments in space than it is on Earth where gravity is constantly present affecting the growth. Those results are useful here on Earth but can only so far be achieved in space. Even beyond things like that the only real way to study the effect of space on the human body is to put people up there for a long time and test. There are some analogues available here on Earth but they can only really test a few things at once like fluid redistribution and not the entire set of effects. https://www.nature.com/articles/npjmgrav201510 https://www.nature.com/articles/npjmgrav201510

by rtkwe 7y ago

Retric 7y ago

The catch 22 is any experiment that you can only do in microgravity is also only really relevant in microgravity. That’s fine if we have a larger goal, but not really useful on it’s own. Sure simply learning this stuff is interesting, but the costs are so extreme it’s effectively a vanity project.

mcguire 7y ago
You could say the same thing about experimental high-energy physics.
jemorya 7y ago
I'm not sure that the information from such experiments is only really relevant to applications in microgravity environments. (Hopefully I'm not misunderstanding your point too much.) The data points from microgravity experiments don't exist in isolation; presumably there are data points for similar experiments at surface gravity. Removing gravity from a system could say very much about how gravity affects the system, and thus how the system works on Earth. We also might discover effects so important that it would be worth going to microgravity to get them. Stepping out into the unknown just to learn how it works is important. (Disclaimer: I know jack about what kind of microgravity experiments are going on.)
greglindahl 7y ago
This generalization isn't true. One modern example is manufacturing optical fibers like ZBLAN[1] -- they work great when you bring them back to Earth. Another new example is 3d printing organs in microgravity[2] to take them back to Earth. The traditional example is doing basic physics that needs long duration microgravity. These sorts of research aren't a large fraction of what's currently done on the ISS, but it's also not zero. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZBLAN https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZBLAN 2: https://www.asme.org/topics-resources/content/growing-human-organs-in-space https://www.asme.org/topics-resources/content/growing-human-...
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- Retric 7y ago
  The need for microgravity to manufacture these things is demonstrating my point.
  - greglindahl 7y ago
    Then I totally didn't get your point. These are things that you manufacture in microgravity that are then usable in gravity. Isn't that what you said did not exist?
    - Retric 7y ago
      I am saying testing say crystal formation in space is only relevant for crystal formation in space. If that’s what you’re going to do aka manufacturing in space then sure experimenting in space is required. Getting the economics to look promising for actually manufacturing in space then that’s a separate thing. Aka Manufacturing would be that larger goal I was referencing.
      - rtkwe 7y ago
        It's not though the crystals are used to determine the structure of the molecule itself through XRay crystallography. We have to grow larger crystals that are then used to determine the shape of the individual molecules. Some crystalize easily and we were able to study them using crystals grown here on Earth but others were more difficult and had to be grown in space. Just because the research takes place in space doesn't mean it's only applicable in space!
bbojan 7y ago
Researchers discover cool-burning flames in space that could lead to better engines here on earth https://jacobsschool.ucsd.edu/news/news_releases/release.sfe?id=1548 https://jacobsschool.ucsd.edu/news/news_releases/release.sfe...
rtkwe 7y ago
Actually not true in the slightest. Microgravity removes one more confounding variable present in all experiments gravity. One example, in addition to those already mentioned, is crystallography; where it's much easier to grow the crystals we need for experiments in space than it is on Earth where gravity is constantly present affecting the growth. Those results are useful here on Earth but can only so far be achieved in space. Even beyond things like that the only real way to study the effect of space on the human body is to put people up there for a long time and test. There are some analogues available here on Earth but they can only really test a few things at once like fluid redistribution and not the entire set of effects. https://www.nature.com/articles/npjmgrav201510 https://www.nature.com/articles/npjmgrav201510