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Tangentially related: I just turned 65, and am continuing to immensely enjoy programming. Current job involves embedded digital signal processing in medical d

Tangentially related: I just turned 65, and am continuing to immensely enjoy programming. Current job involves embedded digital signal processing in medical devices. My family came up with a new name for my category of programmers: the gerihacktric demographic.. :-) I have interviewed with Alphabet twice, no offers. One time apparently it was a close call.. It would be fun to be the all-time record holder for oldest new hire!

moflome 7y ago
Love it. Have found that the closer you get to hardware groups at any of the FAANG's, the higher the average age. Met several happily employed grandparents in the groups, adding value and telling the best stories.
- rifung 7y ago
  > Have found that the closer you get to hardware groups at any of the FAANG's, the higher the average age. Hm that makes sense given the relative infancy of the software industry. Not to mention that enrollment in CS programs has been increasing so the talent pool is skewed towards younger people
xiphias2 7y ago
It's great, that you got to interview stage. What I mostly found that most discrimination happens before someone gets to the interview phase, which makes sense, as it makes interviewing cheaper. Most old people don't learn as many new things as younger ones, which makes it harder for older people who do to get the chance to prove themselves.
- danielscrubs 7y ago
  I'd say they already know the paradigms & architectures so they don't throw themselves at the latest fad as easily and above all seem to value family more highly and lets be honest. Back in the day you had to learn some pretty amazing tech (assembler and low memory data structures) just to get by. But yeah, just today there was a comment here on Hacker News saying (I'm paraphrasing): I learnt C then C++ then Java, then enough was enough. Which is just sad, that's like going from oatmeal to porrige.
  - rubicon33 7y ago
    The flip side of that coin is the drain that comes from... Learning C, then C++, then Rust, then Java, then Ruby (rails), then Objective-C, then Swift, then JavaScript, then Angular, then React, then Flutter, then .... Depending on the timeframe in which all that learning happens, there's simply no way you can reach expert level with such a diversified knowledge base.
    - inlined 7y ago
      > there’s simply no way you can reach expert level with such a diversified codebases. What are you talking about? I’ve checked in production code in 4 languages in a day. Once you learn your first few languages you should be able to learn the new syntax of a language in a day or two and a good portion of their idioms in the next month (as you know more languages you’ll notice what’s unique about each language and glean idioms from online tutorials and your local codebases). Being a polyglot is a huge part of many in our industry, especially full stack development. For one project alone I had to work with a backend that was part Java and part Go that hosted customers’ Node backend. I oversaw client SDKs in Objective-C, Java, and C++ and helped prototype the server-side SDK for Go. That’s not fatigue, it’s enjoyable and a skill I can offer my team. Sure I get rusty with a language, but it doesn’t take long to blow off the dust with a skill.
- sjg007 7y ago
  >Most old people don't learn as many new things as younger ones ... are you sure about that? I'd avoid sweeping generalizations, it does not help your argument.
  - lawnchair_larry 7y ago
    In a discussion about age discrimination, yes, sweeping generalizations do support the argument. He’s not wrong.
    - mcguire 7y ago
      By demonstrating age discrimination?
  - derekp7 7y ago
    I've found that with myself, as I get older I get more selective with what new stuff I learned. I've seen so many fads come and go, and don't really have a whole lot of time ahead of me, so I need to make sure that what I learn really counts.
  - xiphias2 7y ago
    As I'm getting older all my organs are working less, and my brain is slower as well (though I'm able to think just as deeply as before). At the same time I'm much more concious about spending my thinking energy, and because of my experience I'm making much more money than when I was younger _despite_ my slower thinking. Discrimination involves hate, and I definately not hate old people, just accept the facts of life (and I'm also hoping for a cure for aging).
    - MaxBarraclough 7y ago
      > Discrimination involves hate Not always, no. That would give an unworkably narrow definition.
- rikroots 7y ago
  Not my experience. I've learned how to tweak my resume to a job spec while at the same time not giving an impression of my age (getting a degree with the Open University in my 40s really helps with that). It's at the face to face interview stage that the wheels tend to fall off my cart - nothing I could prove as 'ageist' behaviour, more like they're disappointed in me (or discounting me) before we sit down to chat? "Most old people don't learn as many new things as younger ones..." - this is demonstrably ageist. People performing a mid-life career change can be as focussed and driven to succeed in IT as anyone; the determination to acquire and master new skills is, in my view, a personality thing, not an age-related thing.
  - taurath 7y ago
    To some extent it could also be that you’re presenting as young? FWIW - My only concern with older folks is that they’re either jaded, stuck in their ways technologically, or obstinate towards being managed by people younger than them. Strong opinions held strongly is a net negative. This isn’t everyone or even a majority, but it’s quite a few.
    - rikroots 7y ago
      > they’re either jaded, stuck in their ways technologically, or obstinate towards being managed by people younger than them Again, (mostly) stereotyping: "jaded" - I'd argue this hits a lot of front end developers after about 5 years. How many new frameworks have there been in the last 5 years? There comes a point when any sane person will look at the newest "killer" framework and decide to wait a couple of years before investing time in learning it, just in case next year's "killer" framework turns out to be more fun to learn. "stuck in their ways" - this is more a personality thing, I think. Most people will find their comfort zone pretty quickly, and then get grumpy when asked/required to venture outside of it. Risk aversion and/or laziness doesn't, in my view, increase significantly with age. "obstinate towards being managed" - this one is a problem that everyone has to face as they grow older. The sad fact (from what I've seen in my age group) is that some people just cannot come to terms with the ageing process, that there's going to be younger people who are better placed to do a team-leader/manager job than they are (because: longer experience in the industry). But that is something that can be worked on - the important thing is to demonstrate a willingness to at least give it a go, offer support to the younger manager (be a wise owl, not an old owl), and be an excellent team player. At least that's my attitude.
- jackhack 7y ago
  >>Most old people don't learn as many new things as younger ones Most old people don't need to learn as many new things. It's called "experience."
  - filoleg 7y ago
    You can call it “experience”, but that won’t help you find many TurboPascal jobs in 2019. At some point, experience is something that allows you to learn new things quicker and more efficiently, not something to be used as an excuse for not learning new things.
- binthere 7y ago
  You are the proof that there is age discrimination in interviews. If you are in tech there's a high chance you've been on the interviewer side and you already gave your opinion based on this bias.
- gregfjohnson 7y ago
  From what I've seen, some people are passionate voracious learners. This does not correlate with age. However, it may be harder to find these (very valuable) people among a younger population than an older one. If someone has slowed down in the area of constant learning, their existing knowledge may be more recent if they are younger. The "constant learner" signal stands out more prominently for older developers.
- obtino 7y ago
  Repeat these words to yourself when you're in the same situation one day. This is a prime example of ageism!
  - xiphias2 7y ago
    I was in that situation, and had problems getting into company interviews....until I started using my connections
typon 7y ago
I'm much younger than you, but I also interviewed with Google last year, got rejected after on-site, apparently a "close call" too. Did you grind leetcode enough? ;)
- riku_iki 7y ago
  What signal gave you "close call" impression?..
  - mcguire 7y ago
    In my case, it was the recruiter in Dublin, where I interviewed, writing "it looks like we are coming to a successful conclusion" about a week before I got the generic dismissal email.
  - typon 7y ago
    The recruiter told me I had 3 really positive reviews and 2 somewhat positive and 1 negative review. It's usually more feedback than I expect from companies but it was good to hear. It also matched with my expectations knowing how the interview went. She apparently took it to another hiring committee and they said no as well.
    - sandino 7y ago
      The recruiter told me I had 3 really positive reviews and 2 somewhat positive and 1 negative review. And apparently at Google - the negatives carry the day.
      - itp 7y ago
        That's true at a lot of organizations. The cost of a false positive hire typically vastly outweighs the cost of a false negative, particularly when you have the luxury of being perceived as a premiere employer in the space (from which follows a steady stream of qualified applicants).
        7y ago
segmondy 7y ago
Almost every rejected hire is apparently a "close call" ;-)
- pradn 7y ago
  That could be true, statistically, if the initial screening interviews are high-signal.
  - Quekid5 7y ago
    Is there any published research-level evidence that FAANG interviews are high-signal? I'm no expert, but the only published research I've read on this is "Thinking, Fast and Slow", and the original researcher has recently cast doubt on his own results on that study. Regardless, the evidence there was that all that mattered was "any objectively measurable metric" -- which would mean that FAANGs are wasting a lot of time and money on useless interviews. (Of course they have money to throw away, but still...)
    - ninth_ant 7y ago
      I worked at one of those companies. They were very self-certain that their hiring was high signal. They were likewise completely disinterested in doing a control group test where we randomly hire people from the fail pool and see how they compare once hired.
    - vsnf 7y ago
      >the original researcher has recently cast doubt on his own results on that study Do you have a reference for this? I'm interested in reading more.
      - jborichevskiy 7y ago
        This HN post/discussion from 2017 [0] may be of some help. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15228712 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15228712
    - 7y ago
justaj 7y ago
I'm 35. I've yet to learn a programming language. I've always been intimidated by starting and choosing a language. I've started to loosen up regarding that and finally finding a path I could take. However, instead now I'm intimidated by the job market and age discrimination.
- koverda 7y ago
  You can always find an excuse.
  - bobloblaw45 7y ago
    I feel if they're learning strictly to find work and it's not something they do for fun then it's a legitimate concern due to time it takes to learn to get to an employable level. As you get older you need to be more smart with how you spend your time.
- tracker1 7y ago
  Depends on the market... Pacific coast is definitely skewed young. Phoenix, Houston, Austin and Atlanta will be a little older. Phoenix in particular leans a bit older, I'm 44 and average in the group I'm currently working with is within 5 years of my age. A lot of the work is more boring business oriented work, and not a lot of startups. But it's steady, there's plenty of it and it pays relatively well compared to cost of living. Start with Dive Into Python... then decide on something you want to make for yourself and work from there. Python is one of the better options to start from. JS is my personal favorite, second is now Rust, but they're harder to jump into as a beginner.
  - pmiller2 7y ago
    Any stats showing that those places skew older, or is that just your perception?
    - tracker1 7y ago
      Just my own experience... Of course, I did read something a while ago that stated since software development began, roughly half of all software developers had less than 5 years of experience. The reflects growth and attrition in addition to youth. So definitely young people out there. From my experience, at least half of the devs I've worked with have been within 5 years of my age (currently 44) and where I am now, and my last two positions that's been the case as well.
52-6F-62 7y ago
Excellent! Any resource suggestions for a digital signal processing novice? More interested on the musical end, but also in general.
- gregfjohnson 7y ago
  Here is an excellent resource: https://ccrma.stanford.edu/~jos/ https://ccrma.stanford.edu/~jos/ The first online book linked from the author's homepage is: MATHEMATICS OF THE DISCRETE FOURIER TRANSFORM (DFT) WITH AUDIO APPLICATIONS SECOND EDITION IMHO the author does a brilliant job of presenting the mathematics with rigor, but with accessible "on-ramps" via examples.
  - howard941 7y ago
    Wow. In all seriousness I regret I have only one up arrow to give for this guy's online stuff.
  - 52-6F-62 7y ago
    Thank you! This is exactly the kind of applied maths I need to get myself to commit to learning what I (at least think) I want to learn. Appreciate it!
- AareyBaba 7y ago
  Coursera Audio Signal Processing for Music Applications - Xavier Serra & Prof Julius O Smith, III @ Stanford
  - 52-6F-62 7y ago
    Appreciate it!

moflome 7y ago

Love it. Have found that the closer you get to hardware groups at any of the FAANG's, the higher the average age. Met several happily employed grandparents in the groups, adding value and telling the best stories.

rifung 7y ago
> Have found that the closer you get to hardware groups at any of the FAANG's, the higher the average age. Hm that makes sense given the relative infancy of the software industry. Not to mention that enrollment in CS programs has been increasing so the talent pool is skewed towards younger people

xiphias2 7y ago

It's great, that you got to interview stage. What I mostly found that most discrimination happens before someone gets to the interview phase, which makes sense, as it makes interviewing cheaper. Most old people don't learn as many new things as younger ones, which makes it harder for older people who do to get the chance to prove themselves.

danielscrubs 7y ago
I'd say they already know the paradigms & architectures so they don't throw themselves at the latest fad as easily and above all seem to value family more highly and lets be honest. Back in the day you had to learn some pretty amazing tech (assembler and low memory data structures) just to get by. But yeah, just today there was a comment here on Hacker News saying (I'm paraphrasing): I learnt C then C++ then Java, then enough was enough. Which is just sad, that's like going from oatmeal to porrige.
- rubicon33 7y ago
  The flip side of that coin is the drain that comes from... Learning C, then C++, then Rust, then Java, then Ruby (rails), then Objective-C, then Swift, then JavaScript, then Angular, then React, then Flutter, then .... Depending on the timeframe in which all that learning happens, there's simply no way you can reach expert level with such a diversified knowledge base.
  - inlined 7y ago
    > there’s simply no way you can reach expert level with such a diversified codebases. What are you talking about? I’ve checked in production code in 4 languages in a day. Once you learn your first few languages you should be able to learn the new syntax of a language in a day or two and a good portion of their idioms in the next month (as you know more languages you’ll notice what’s unique about each language and glean idioms from online tutorials and your local codebases). Being a polyglot is a huge part of many in our industry, especially full stack development. For one project alone I had to work with a backend that was part Java and part Go that hosted customers’ Node backend. I oversaw client SDKs in Objective-C, Java, and C++ and helped prototype the server-side SDK for Go. That’s not fatigue, it’s enjoyable and a skill I can offer my team. Sure I get rusty with a language, but it doesn’t take long to blow off the dust with a skill.
sjg007 7y ago
>Most old people don't learn as many new things as younger ones ... are you sure about that? I'd avoid sweeping generalizations, it does not help your argument.
- lawnchair_larry 7y ago
  In a discussion about age discrimination, yes, sweeping generalizations do support the argument. He’s not wrong.
  - mcguire 7y ago
    By demonstrating age discrimination?
- derekp7 7y ago
  I've found that with myself, as I get older I get more selective with what new stuff I learned. I've seen so many fads come and go, and don't really have a whole lot of time ahead of me, so I need to make sure that what I learn really counts.
- xiphias2 7y ago
  As I'm getting older all my organs are working less, and my brain is slower as well (though I'm able to think just as deeply as before). At the same time I'm much more concious about spending my thinking energy, and because of my experience I'm making much more money than when I was younger _despite_ my slower thinking. Discrimination involves hate, and I definately not hate old people, just accept the facts of life (and I'm also hoping for a cure for aging).
  - MaxBarraclough 7y ago
    > Discrimination involves hate Not always, no. That would give an unworkably narrow definition.
rikroots 7y ago
Not my experience. I've learned how to tweak my resume to a job spec while at the same time not giving an impression of my age (getting a degree with the Open University in my 40s really helps with that). It's at the face to face interview stage that the wheels tend to fall off my cart - nothing I could prove as 'ageist' behaviour, more like they're disappointed in me (or discounting me) before we sit down to chat? "Most old people don't learn as many new things as younger ones..." - this is demonstrably ageist. People performing a mid-life career change can be as focussed and driven to succeed in IT as anyone; the determination to acquire and master new skills is, in my view, a personality thing, not an age-related thing.
- taurath 7y ago
  To some extent it could also be that you’re presenting as young? FWIW - My only concern with older folks is that they’re either jaded, stuck in their ways technologically, or obstinate towards being managed by people younger than them. Strong opinions held strongly is a net negative. This isn’t everyone or even a majority, but it’s quite a few.
  - rikroots 7y ago
    > they’re either jaded, stuck in their ways technologically, or obstinate towards being managed by people younger than them Again, (mostly) stereotyping: "jaded" - I'd argue this hits a lot of front end developers after about 5 years. How many new frameworks have there been in the last 5 years? There comes a point when any sane person will look at the newest "killer" framework and decide to wait a couple of years before investing time in learning it, just in case next year's "killer" framework turns out to be more fun to learn. "stuck in their ways" - this is more a personality thing, I think. Most people will find their comfort zone pretty quickly, and then get grumpy when asked/required to venture outside of it. Risk aversion and/or laziness doesn't, in my view, increase significantly with age. "obstinate towards being managed" - this one is a problem that everyone has to face as they grow older. The sad fact (from what I've seen in my age group) is that some people just cannot come to terms with the ageing process, that there's going to be younger people who are better placed to do a team-leader/manager job than they are (because: longer experience in the industry). But that is something that can be worked on - the important thing is to demonstrate a willingness to at least give it a go, offer support to the younger manager (be a wise owl, not an old owl), and be an excellent team player. At least that's my attitude.
jackhack 7y ago
>>Most old people don't learn as many new things as younger ones Most old people don't need to learn as many new things. It's called "experience."
- filoleg 7y ago
  You can call it “experience”, but that won’t help you find many TurboPascal jobs in 2019. At some point, experience is something that allows you to learn new things quicker and more efficiently, not something to be used as an excuse for not learning new things.
binthere 7y ago
You are the proof that there is age discrimination in interviews. If you are in tech there's a high chance you've been on the interviewer side and you already gave your opinion based on this bias.
gregfjohnson 7y ago
From what I've seen, some people are passionate voracious learners. This does not correlate with age. However, it may be harder to find these (very valuable) people among a younger population than an older one. If someone has slowed down in the area of constant learning, their existing knowledge may be more recent if they are younger. The "constant learner" signal stands out more prominently for older developers.
obtino 7y ago
Repeat these words to yourself when you're in the same situation one day. This is a prime example of ageism!
- xiphias2 7y ago
  I was in that situation, and had problems getting into company interviews....until I started using my connections

typon 7y ago

I'm much younger than you, but I also interviewed with Google last year, got rejected after on-site, apparently a "close call" too. Did you grind leetcode enough? ;)

riku_iki 7y ago
What signal gave you "close call" impression?..
- mcguire 7y ago
  In my case, it was the recruiter in Dublin, where I interviewed, writing "it looks like we are coming to a successful conclusion" about a week before I got the generic dismissal email.
- typon 7y ago
  The recruiter told me I had 3 really positive reviews and 2 somewhat positive and 1 negative review. It's usually more feedback than I expect from companies but it was good to hear. It also matched with my expectations knowing how the interview went. She apparently took it to another hiring committee and they said no as well.
  - sandino 7y ago
    The recruiter told me I had 3 really positive reviews and 2 somewhat positive and 1 negative review. And apparently at Google - the negatives carry the day.
    - itp 7y ago
      That's true at a lot of organizations. The cost of a false positive hire typically vastly outweighs the cost of a false negative, particularly when you have the luxury of being perceived as a premiere employer in the space (from which follows a steady stream of qualified applicants).
      - 7y ago

segmondy 7y ago

Almost every rejected hire is apparently a "close call" ;-)

pradn 7y ago
That could be true, statistically, if the initial screening interviews are high-signal.
- Quekid5 7y ago
  Is there any published research-level evidence that FAANG interviews are high-signal? I'm no expert, but the only published research I've read on this is "Thinking, Fast and Slow", and the original researcher has recently cast doubt on his own results on that study. Regardless, the evidence there was that all that mattered was "any objectively measurable metric" -- which would mean that FAANGs are wasting a lot of time and money on useless interviews. (Of course they have money to throw away, but still...)
  - ninth_ant 7y ago
    I worked at one of those companies. They were very self-certain that their hiring was high signal. They were likewise completely disinterested in doing a control group test where we randomly hire people from the fail pool and see how they compare once hired.
  - vsnf 7y ago
    >the original researcher has recently cast doubt on his own results on that study Do you have a reference for this? I'm interested in reading more.
    - jborichevskiy 7y ago
      This HN post/discussion from 2017 [0] may be of some help. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15228712 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15228712
  - 7y ago

justaj 7y ago

I'm 35. I've yet to learn a programming language. I've always been intimidated by starting and choosing a language. I've started to loosen up regarding that and finally finding a path I could take. However, instead now I'm intimidated by the job market and age discrimination.

koverda 7y ago
You can always find an excuse.
- bobloblaw45 7y ago
  I feel if they're learning strictly to find work and it's not something they do for fun then it's a legitimate concern due to time it takes to learn to get to an employable level. As you get older you need to be more smart with how you spend your time.
tracker1 7y ago
Depends on the market... Pacific coast is definitely skewed young. Phoenix, Houston, Austin and Atlanta will be a little older. Phoenix in particular leans a bit older, I'm 44 and average in the group I'm currently working with is within 5 years of my age. A lot of the work is more boring business oriented work, and not a lot of startups. But it's steady, there's plenty of it and it pays relatively well compared to cost of living. Start with Dive Into Python... then decide on something you want to make for yourself and work from there. Python is one of the better options to start from. JS is my personal favorite, second is now Rust, but they're harder to jump into as a beginner.
- pmiller2 7y ago
  Any stats showing that those places skew older, or is that just your perception?
  - tracker1 7y ago
    Just my own experience... Of course, I did read something a while ago that stated since software development began, roughly half of all software developers had less than 5 years of experience. The reflects growth and attrition in addition to youth. So definitely young people out there. From my experience, at least half of the devs I've worked with have been within 5 years of my age (currently 44) and where I am now, and my last two positions that's been the case as well.

52-6F-62 7y ago

Excellent! Any resource suggestions for a digital signal processing novice? More interested on the musical end, but also in general.

gregfjohnson 7y ago
Here is an excellent resource: https://ccrma.stanford.edu/~jos/ https://ccrma.stanford.edu/~jos/ The first online book linked from the author's homepage is: MATHEMATICS OF THE DISCRETE FOURIER TRANSFORM (DFT) WITH AUDIO APPLICATIONS SECOND EDITION IMHO the author does a brilliant job of presenting the mathematics with rigor, but with accessible "on-ramps" via examples.
- howard941 7y ago
  Wow. In all seriousness I regret I have only one up arrow to give for this guy's online stuff.
- 52-6F-62 7y ago
  Thank you! This is exactly the kind of applied maths I need to get myself to commit to learning what I (at least think) I want to learn. Appreciate it!
AareyBaba 7y ago
Coursera Audio Signal Processing for Music Applications - Xavier Serra & Prof Julius O Smith, III @ Stanford
- 52-6F-62 7y ago
  Appreciate it!