6 ms·

The AI of GoldenEye 007

201 points by danso 7y ago

mattl 7y ago
This article mentions the expansion pak but this wasn’t even released at the time of the game. The sequel, Perfect Dark, relies heavily on the expansion, while Donkey Kong 64 requires it due to a game breaking bug.
- danso 7y ago
  I got the impression that the expansion RAM is mentioned (in a screenshot) to convey how little RAM there was period, even with the pak. Neither the article nor the video (afaik) claim that Goldeneye had access to that RAM
- jmkni 7y ago
  The only reason the game came with the expansion pak was to fix that one memory bug, IIRC. They couldn't figure it out, but realised the game didn't crash when it had a bit more ram so they just gave everybody an expansion pak.
  - vocatus_gate 7y ago
    That's hilarious, I wonder how much that ended up costing them?
kirrent 7y ago
> a notable example is the guards on the dam which can't see you until you approach their walkways and this is because the STANs at the top of the ladder can only see those at the bottom. It's a credit to the game that I never noticed this and other AI shortfalls. Somehow the combination of fast paced action, tense stealth gameplay, level design, and good enough AI was enough to transcend any critical faculties I had. I guess the lesson there is whether it's CGI, VR, or game AI, when you understand your limitations and design to them, you can get the audience to do the rest of the work in their head completely unaware of the shortcomings that are not only hidden from them but that they may be compensating for.
- jacobush 7y ago
  "not only" --> "not even" ?
  - tc313 7y ago
    The shortcomings are both hidden and being compensated for (“not only the one, but also the other”).
- breck 7y ago
  Did folks who knew how to program back then still love games like GoldenEye? I loved it and we played it all the time but I was a kid and didn't understand computers or programming yet. I'm wondering if understanding how something was made would have made it less enjoyable? Less addicting?
  - amalcon 7y ago
    I knew a fair amount at the time (enough to write some really bad programs for my own personal use). I definitely still loved that game (enough to write a fairly popular though mostly wrong guide for it).
  - JohnBooty 7y ago
    I didn't love Goldeneye in particular, but I was in college for CompSci and had done a little OpenGL. No, knowing (roughly, from a very 50,000 foot kind of view) how those games were made did NOT diminish my love for them. If anything, it really enhanced my enjoyment and appreciation for them. Having made my own simple programs I was very appreciative of the gulf between my weekly programming assignments and the massive amounts of technical wizardry and craft that went into something like a polished retail game. I don't think video games ever really fooled me into thinking they were anything but simulations operating according to some underlying rules. After all, even if you know nothing about programming, your goal as a player is to figure out those rules in order to beat the CPU and win the game! But those rules often delighted me anyway, and I always had a hefty dose of willing suspension of disbelief, so even something like a 16-bit RPG could really connect with me emotionally....
chrsstrm 7y ago
They spent all that energy on NPC AI yet the multiplayer respawn points were incredibly predictable after you memorized the sequence. Eventually multiplayer wasn't fun anymore when playing against other people who knew the sequence. You could easily kill a player and then sprint to the next spawn point and kill them again. Wash rinse repeat. Fun if you were the one on the spree, not fun if you got caught in that cycle.
- freedomben 7y ago
  Haha yep! My brother and I even got the minimum distance to spawn figured out. Basically, if you got too close to the spawn point, the AI would skip it and move to the next. But you could be just a little ways off and not trip the proximity. It was a vicious cycle indeed. Turning on License to Kill basically guaranteed whoever got the first shot of the game would own the rest.
  - flukus 7y ago
    > But you could be just a little ways off and not trip the proximity. Speaking of which, proximity mines didn't trigger this proximity either ;) Once memorized you could get around on many levels just as fast as re-spawns could happen and your opponent couldn't break the cycle. At some point 3 players is a must.
- galkk 7y ago
  Similar thing happened to Quake 3, where in initial versions the repawn order wasn't predefined, but close to it. Some guys who spent time studying it got quite a competitive advantage. id fixed that later, making respawns totally random.
- protomyth 7y ago
  Yeah, the spawn point led us to tell people no camping since that would ruin the fun.
- jmkni 7y ago
  I remember reading that multiplayer was pretty much an afterthought for GoldenEye. It wasn't planned, they just sort of hacked it together and snuck it in.
djmips 7y ago
Now that industrial AI has taken off, it's even more striking how pompous it is to call simple game enemy logic 'Artificial Intelligence'.
- foldor 7y ago
  I don't think so at all. Just because better AI exists today doesn't invalidate earlier efforts. That would be like taking umbrage at people calling the BBC Micro a computer because we have more powerful hardware today.
  - rizzin 7y ago
    Another important thing to understand is that "industrial AI" and "game AI" have different goals. Industrial AI's main goal is solving hard problems. Game AI's main goal is to provide an entertaining experience to the player within the context of a game, no more, no less. Space invaders AI can be coded by any amateur programmer, however it succeeds in being entertaining while playing the game.
  - meheleventyone 7y ago
    People have also used similar techniques (neural nets) to ‘industrial AI’ in game AI long before as well[1]. It’s also silly in an industrial context to use a more fashionable technique when a less fashionable one will do the job better. [1] http://www.ai-junkie.com/misc/hannan/hannan.html http://www.ai-junkie.com/misc/hannan/hannan.html
- kalleboo 7y ago
  What is "AI" has never been very strictly defined. ELIZA is also considered an AI, just an extremely primitive one.
ceejayoz 7y ago
I keep hoping someone'll remake it for the Quest VR headset. The cartoonish graphics would fit in beautifully, and it'd probably be a blast.
- phodo 7y ago
  Are there any good games for the Quest that you recommend ?
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - ceejayoz 7y ago
    Thus far, my favorites are Beat Saber (typically not my thing, but it's great exercise), Superhot (makes me feel like Neo in the Matrix, including rolling around on the floor - the room scale stuff shines here), and Space Pirate Trainer. Vader Immortal has potential, but right now there's only the first episode so it's short. Oh, there's a free ISS game that's quite good. You can explore the station and go for a space walk.
- topmonk 7y ago
  Not for the Quest, but you can play N64 games, including golden eye using the dolphin vr emulator: https://dolphinvr.wordpress.com https://dolphinvr.wordpress.com
jdkee 7y ago
It is fascinating to see how many AI techniques were developed from the need to produce realistic agents/behaviors/mappings in video games. This document of Left 4 Deads techniques blew me away when I read it. (Not having worked in the industry but as connoisseur of video games). https://steamcdn-a.akamaihd.net/apps/valve/2009/ai_systems_of_l4d_mike_booth.pdf https://steamcdn-a.akamaihd.net/apps/valve/2009/ai_systems_o...
- rizzin 7y ago
  Another notable game AI that is still considered quite outstanding is the AI from F.E.A.R that uses a planning-based approach. Article: https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2017/04/03/why-fears-ai-is-still-the-best-in-first-person-shooters/ https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2017/04/03/why-fears-ai-is-... GDC presentation by the developer: https://alumni.media.mit.edu/~jorkin/gdc2006_orkin_jeff_fear.pdf https://alumni.media.mit.edu/~jorkin/gdc2006_orkin_jeff_fear...
  - Agentlien 7y ago
    I wanted to post this as well. Whenever I think of game A.I. the two games that always come to mind are Half-Life 2 and F.E.A.R.
    - Aardwolf 7y ago
      Half-Life 1 as well, it was pretty novel how soldiers would take cover behind crates and then throw grenades
      - robodale 7y ago
        I remember that as well, and made for a very exciting experience.
lifeisstillgood 7y ago
>>> Released two years after the launch of the film That explains the weird sort of feeling I remember about this game - that I had missed out for ages on this game (and clearly was not a member of the cognoscenti) and so was playing what everyone else already knew about. Weirdly no young person in the age of wikipedia will feel that for long anymore...
Causality1 7y ago
Damn I miss the old Rare.

201 points by danso 7y ago

This article mentions the expansion pak but this wasn’t even released at the time of the game. The sequel, Perfect Dark, relies heavily on the expansion, while Donkey Kong 64 requires it due to a game breaking bug.

danso 7y ago
I got the impression that the expansion RAM is mentioned (in a screenshot) to convey how little RAM there was period, even with the pak. Neither the article nor the video (afaik) claim that Goldeneye had access to that RAM
jmkni 7y ago
The only reason the game came with the expansion pak was to fix that one memory bug, IIRC. They couldn't figure it out, but realised the game didn't crash when it had a bit more ram so they just gave everybody an expansion pak.
- vocatus_gate 7y ago
  That's hilarious, I wonder how much that ended up costing them?

kirrent 7y ago

> a notable example is the guards on the dam which can't see you until you approach their walkways and this is because the STANs at the top of the ladder can only see those at the bottom. It's a credit to the game that I never noticed this and other AI shortfalls. Somehow the combination of fast paced action, tense stealth gameplay, level design, and good enough AI was enough to transcend any critical faculties I had. I guess the lesson there is whether it's CGI, VR, or game AI, when you understand your limitations and design to them, you can get the audience to do the rest of the work in their head completely unaware of the shortcomings that are not only hidden from them but that they may be compensating for.

jacobush 7y ago
"not only" --> "not even" ?
- tc313 7y ago
  The shortcomings are both hidden and being compensated for (“not only the one, but also the other”).
breck 7y ago
Did folks who knew how to program back then still love games like GoldenEye? I loved it and we played it all the time but I was a kid and didn't understand computers or programming yet. I'm wondering if understanding how something was made would have made it less enjoyable? Less addicting?
- amalcon 7y ago
  I knew a fair amount at the time (enough to write some really bad programs for my own personal use). I definitely still loved that game (enough to write a fairly popular though mostly wrong guide for it).
- JohnBooty 7y ago
  I didn't love Goldeneye in particular, but I was in college for CompSci and had done a little OpenGL. No, knowing (roughly, from a very 50,000 foot kind of view) how those games were made did NOT diminish my love for them. If anything, it really enhanced my enjoyment and appreciation for them. Having made my own simple programs I was very appreciative of the gulf between my weekly programming assignments and the massive amounts of technical wizardry and craft that went into something like a polished retail game. I don't think video games ever really fooled me into thinking they were anything but simulations operating according to some underlying rules. After all, even if you know nothing about programming, your goal as a player is to figure out those rules in order to beat the CPU and win the game! But those rules often delighted me anyway, and I always had a hefty dose of willing suspension of disbelief, so even something like a 16-bit RPG could really connect with me emotionally....

chrsstrm 7y ago

They spent all that energy on NPC AI yet the multiplayer respawn points were incredibly predictable after you memorized the sequence. Eventually multiplayer wasn't fun anymore when playing against other people who knew the sequence. You could easily kill a player and then sprint to the next spawn point and kill them again. Wash rinse repeat. Fun if you were the one on the spree, not fun if you got caught in that cycle.

freedomben 7y ago
Haha yep! My brother and I even got the minimum distance to spawn figured out. Basically, if you got too close to the spawn point, the AI would skip it and move to the next. But you could be just a little ways off and not trip the proximity. It was a vicious cycle indeed. Turning on License to Kill basically guaranteed whoever got the first shot of the game would own the rest.
- flukus 7y ago
  > But you could be just a little ways off and not trip the proximity. Speaking of which, proximity mines didn't trigger this proximity either ;) Once memorized you could get around on many levels just as fast as re-spawns could happen and your opponent couldn't break the cycle. At some point 3 players is a must.
galkk 7y ago
Similar thing happened to Quake 3, where in initial versions the repawn order wasn't predefined, but close to it. Some guys who spent time studying it got quite a competitive advantage. id fixed that later, making respawns totally random.
protomyth 7y ago
Yeah, the spawn point led us to tell people no camping since that would ruin the fun.
jmkni 7y ago
I remember reading that multiplayer was pretty much an afterthought for GoldenEye. It wasn't planned, they just sort of hacked it together and snuck it in.

djmips 7y ago

Now that industrial AI has taken off, it's even more striking how pompous it is to call simple game enemy logic 'Artificial Intelligence'.

foldor 7y ago
I don't think so at all. Just because better AI exists today doesn't invalidate earlier efforts. That would be like taking umbrage at people calling the BBC Micro a computer because we have more powerful hardware today.
- rizzin 7y ago
  Another important thing to understand is that "industrial AI" and "game AI" have different goals. Industrial AI's main goal is solving hard problems. Game AI's main goal is to provide an entertaining experience to the player within the context of a game, no more, no less. Space invaders AI can be coded by any amateur programmer, however it succeeds in being entertaining while playing the game.
- meheleventyone 7y ago
  People have also used similar techniques (neural nets) to ‘industrial AI’ in game AI long before as well[1]. It’s also silly in an industrial context to use a more fashionable technique when a less fashionable one will do the job better. [1] http://www.ai-junkie.com/misc/hannan/hannan.html http://www.ai-junkie.com/misc/hannan/hannan.html
kalleboo 7y ago
What is "AI" has never been very strictly defined. ELIZA is also considered an AI, just an extremely primitive one.

ceejayoz 7y ago

I keep hoping someone'll remake it for the Quest VR headset. The cartoonish graphics would fit in beautifully, and it'd probably be a blast.

phodo 7y ago
Are there any good games for the Quest that you recommend ?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- ceejayoz 7y ago
  Thus far, my favorites are Beat Saber (typically not my thing, but it's great exercise), Superhot (makes me feel like Neo in the Matrix, including rolling around on the floor - the room scale stuff shines here), and Space Pirate Trainer. Vader Immortal has potential, but right now there's only the first episode so it's short. Oh, there's a free ISS game that's quite good. You can explore the station and go for a space walk.
topmonk 7y ago
Not for the Quest, but you can play N64 games, including golden eye using the dolphin vr emulator: https://dolphinvr.wordpress.com https://dolphinvr.wordpress.com

jdkee 7y ago

It is fascinating to see how many AI techniques were developed from the need to produce realistic agents/behaviors/mappings in video games. This document of Left 4 Deads techniques blew me away when I read it. (Not having worked in the industry but as connoisseur of video games). https://steamcdn-a.akamaihd.net/apps/valve/2009/ai_systems_of_l4d_mike_booth.pdf https://steamcdn-a.akamaihd.net/apps/valve/2009/ai_systems_o...

rizzin 7y ago
Another notable game AI that is still considered quite outstanding is the AI from F.E.A.R that uses a planning-based approach. Article: https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2017/04/03/why-fears-ai-is-still-the-best-in-first-person-shooters/ https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2017/04/03/why-fears-ai-is-... GDC presentation by the developer: https://alumni.media.mit.edu/~jorkin/gdc2006_orkin_jeff_fear.pdf https://alumni.media.mit.edu/~jorkin/gdc2006_orkin_jeff_fear...
- Agentlien 7y ago
  I wanted to post this as well. Whenever I think of game A.I. the two games that always come to mind are Half-Life 2 and F.E.A.R.
  - Aardwolf 7y ago
    Half-Life 1 as well, it was pretty novel how soldiers would take cover behind crates and then throw grenades
    - robodale 7y ago
      I remember that as well, and made for a very exciting experience.

lifeisstillgood 7y ago

>>> Released two years after the launch of the film That explains the weird sort of feeling I remember about this game - that I had missed out for ages on this game (and clearly was not a member of the cognoscenti) and so was playing what everyone else already knew about. Weirdly no young person in the age of wikipedia will feel that for long anymore...

Causality1 7y ago

Damn I miss the old Rare.