5 ms·

The title of the article doesn't really match what the article has to say about his trial. It does, however, work nicely as an example of a general rule I have:

The title of the article doesn't really match what the article has to say about his trial. It does, however, work nicely as an example of a general rule I have: I'm always suspicious when hearing tales about scientists who were punished for their discoveries by less enlightened minds. Looking into it, it mostly turns out they were either sentenced for other crimes or, as this article claims was the case here, that it was most likely a political move masquerading as being motivated by theology. Which itself falls under another similar guideline: if any big societal undertaking (wars unfortunately seem to be the most common example) seems motivated by religion, that's usually not the true reason behind it. Perhaps my own beliefs are colouring my interpretations, but it just seems like people's actual motivations tend to be pragmatic but they market their actions as being out of belief or morality.

VLM 7y ago
Your observation is correct. The reasoning is you can't get people to fight in a war or civil war or invasion by telling them "you're just like the other guys although your leaders doesn't like our leaders" Its easy to get them to fight if you can propagandize them into thinking the other guys have the wrong religious beliefs, they hate civilization, they oppose your lifestyle, they're deplorables, etc, then they'll fight. This is why (small L) libertarianism and political centrism is hated by all groups of all opinions who are in power; you can't get people to kill for your profit using the rhetoric of "you have a nice life over there while I have a nice life over here".
jessaustin 7y ago
...if any big societal undertaking... seems motivated by religion, that's usually not the true reason behind it. It's increasingly apparent that not even religion is motivated by religion. Since prehistoric times there have been economically unproductive but rhetorically skilled men who have desired strange sexual acts with typically off-limits partners, without the hassle of marrying or purchasing those partners. Those men have become shamans, priests, monks, gurus, and preachers. That's the purpose of religion.
- foxyv 7y ago
  Don't forget the best food, drink and money as "Sacrifices."
- whatshisface 7y ago
  Neither pickup artists nor 20th century philandering french existentialists would agree with that.
- honestoHeminway 7y ago
  Those men usually suffered persecution, unless they doned the disguise, at which point the persecution become support. As in one party supports upholding of contracts, the other upholds the omerta of what happens in the institution stays in the institution. Law made out of a power triangle and a perversion. Societys innards is not a nice view, once you lift the lid.
- smogcutter 7y ago
  > hose men have become shamans, priests, monks, gurus, and preachers You left CEOs off the list.
asark 7y ago
> Looking into it, it mostly turns out they were either sentenced for other crimes or, as this article claims was the case here, that it was most likely a political move masquerading as being motivated by theology. Despite having been a believer until age ~14 or so (raised that way) I've been having real trouble lately getting into the heads of adults who really, actually believe all the stuff their religions teach. I don't mean the vaguely spiritual Unitarian Universalist sorts or the new-age Buddhists who figure all the weird stuff in Buddhist teachings & writings is purely allegorical, I mean the ones who truly think all the stuff in their books happened and maybe even that the supernatural has a real influence on their lives today. I have even more trouble modeling the mind of functioning, even intelligent adults who run religious institutions and are true believers, not just pragmatists following along because that's What One Does, doing it all with a bit of a wink and a nod. Like, your average priest: how many actually believe? Is it really most of them? An abbott? Really, they do, for the most part? How about back in, say, the middle ages, the cardinals and such really believed? Nobles and heads of state did? I just can't wrap my head around it. Or, ancient folks. How real was religion in their lives? To what degree were the gods of Greece a vehicle for conveying (this part clearly real and important, to the Greeks!) common norms and lessons via (essentially) folk tales, and how much did they actually think Zeus—actually Zeus, a supernatural being who for-real did all the batshit crazy stuff in the stories—truly might show up at their door dressed as a beggar? Did most people believe it? Did the elites? It's hard for me to imagine. All this seems incredibly dumb, I know, but that's where I'm at. [EDIT] incredibly dumb that I'm struggling so much to comprehend this, I mean.
- camjohnson26 7y ago
  As a functioning, intelligent adult who believes everything written in my religion’s holy book I empathize with how ridiculous it looks from the outside. But to me I have just as much trouble understanding how someone can go through life and not believe that there’s more to it than the natural world, and probably struggle as much to understand that viewpoint as you do to understand mine. To me it’s a self evident miracle that any kind of universe exists, not to mention that there’s life in it, and even more amazing that the life can observe the universe, explore it, and enjoy it. To me something had to cause all this, and if so then some religion has to be true. If some religion is true then you can’t pick and choose the parts you like and discard what you don’t. I agree that many of the most powerful religious leaders don’t actually believe everything they teach though. Religion is a powerful tool to get people to do what you want.
cf141q5325 7y ago
> that it was most likely a political move masquerading as being motivated by theology. Reminded me a bit of this wonderful conversation on "you are the worst". > “I was defending our country.” “Oh, please. You weren’t defending anything except for the business interests of evil men.” “Jimmy, our country is the business interests of evil men!”
yellowapple 7y ago
Taking that rule a bit further: politics begets religion, not the other way around. That is: even in cases where political decisions seem to derive from religious beliefs, more often than not those very beliefs in turn derive from political decisions (and exist specifically as an implementation or assertion thereof). From the giant global religious institutions to the smallest of congregations, politics are constantly at play.

VLM 7y ago

Your observation is correct. The reasoning is you can't get people to fight in a war or civil war or invasion by telling them "you're just like the other guys although your leaders doesn't like our leaders" Its easy to get them to fight if you can propagandize them into thinking the other guys have the wrong religious beliefs, they hate civilization, they oppose your lifestyle, they're deplorables, etc, then they'll fight. This is why (small L) libertarianism and political centrism is hated by all groups of all opinions who are in power; you can't get people to kill for your profit using the rhetoric of "you have a nice life over there while I have a nice life over here".

jessaustin 7y ago

...if any big societal undertaking... seems motivated by religion, that's usually not the true reason behind it. It's increasingly apparent that not even religion is motivated by religion. Since prehistoric times there have been economically unproductive but rhetorically skilled men who have desired strange sexual acts with typically off-limits partners, without the hassle of marrying or purchasing those partners. Those men have become shamans, priests, monks, gurus, and preachers. That's the purpose of religion.

foxyv 7y ago
Don't forget the best food, drink and money as "Sacrifices."
whatshisface 7y ago
Neither pickup artists nor 20th century philandering french existentialists would agree with that.
honestoHeminway 7y ago
Those men usually suffered persecution, unless they doned the disguise, at which point the persecution become support. As in one party supports upholding of contracts, the other upholds the omerta of what happens in the institution stays in the institution. Law made out of a power triangle and a perversion. Societys innards is not a nice view, once you lift the lid.
smogcutter 7y ago
> hose men have become shamans, priests, monks, gurus, and preachers You left CEOs off the list.

asark 7y ago

> Looking into it, it mostly turns out they were either sentenced for other crimes or, as this article claims was the case here, that it was most likely a political move masquerading as being motivated by theology. Despite having been a believer until age ~14 or so (raised that way) I've been having real trouble lately getting into the heads of adults who really, actually believe all the stuff their religions teach. I don't mean the vaguely spiritual Unitarian Universalist sorts or the new-age Buddhists who figure all the weird stuff in Buddhist teachings & writings is purely allegorical, I mean the ones who truly think all the stuff in their books happened and maybe even that the supernatural has a real influence on their lives today. I have even more trouble modeling the mind of functioning, even intelligent adults who run religious institutions and are true believers, not just pragmatists following along because that's What One Does, doing it all with a bit of a wink and a nod. Like, your average priest: how many actually believe? Is it really most of them? An abbott? Really, they do, for the most part? How about back in, say, the middle ages, the cardinals and such really believed? Nobles and heads of state did? I just can't wrap my head around it. Or, ancient folks. How real was religion in their lives? To what degree were the gods of Greece a vehicle for conveying (this part clearly real and important, to the Greeks!) common norms and lessons via (essentially) folk tales, and how much did they actually think Zeus—actually Zeus, a supernatural being who for-real did all the batshit crazy stuff in the stories—truly might show up at their door dressed as a beggar? Did most people believe it? Did the elites? It's hard for me to imagine. All this seems incredibly dumb, I know, but that's where I'm at. [EDIT] incredibly dumb that I'm struggling so much to comprehend this, I mean.

camjohnson26 7y ago
As a functioning, intelligent adult who believes everything written in my religion’s holy book I empathize with how ridiculous it looks from the outside. But to me I have just as much trouble understanding how someone can go through life and not believe that there’s more to it than the natural world, and probably struggle as much to understand that viewpoint as you do to understand mine. To me it’s a self evident miracle that any kind of universe exists, not to mention that there’s life in it, and even more amazing that the life can observe the universe, explore it, and enjoy it. To me something had to cause all this, and if so then some religion has to be true. If some religion is true then you can’t pick and choose the parts you like and discard what you don’t. I agree that many of the most powerful religious leaders don’t actually believe everything they teach though. Religion is a powerful tool to get people to do what you want.

cf141q5325 7y ago

> that it was most likely a political move masquerading as being motivated by theology. Reminded me a bit of this wonderful conversation on "you are the worst". > “I was defending our country.” “Oh, please. You weren’t defending anything except for the business interests of evil men.” “Jimmy, our country is the business interests of evil men!”

yellowapple 7y ago

Taking that rule a bit further: politics begets religion, not the other way around. That is: even in cases where political decisions seem to derive from religious beliefs, more often than not those very beliefs in turn derive from political decisions (and exist specifically as an implementation or assertion thereof). From the giant global religious institutions to the smallest of congregations, politics are constantly at play.