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The progressives in HN downvote you, but the truth is that being able to use violence to protect your individual freedoms is instrumental to democracy. Few plac

The progressives in HN downvote you, but the truth is that being able to use violence to protect your individual freedoms is instrumental to democracy. Few places can boast the level of stability that EEUU has had in the last 150 years. Many were taken over by tyrants and armed mobs, than eventually chose their tyrant. It's no coincidence that in Venezuela the regime disarmed the people with a law that according to them was meant to protect them. The 2nd amendment is vital, don't let anyone make you think otherwise.

orf 7y ago
What about the many, many other functioning democracies with incredibly strict gun control?
- meddlepal 7y ago
  It is all well and good until they stop functioning. Guns empower people to not sit down and just take it when governments consistentenly abuse their power over a long enough period of time.
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  - orf 7y ago
    Saying “it’s all fine and dandy until the democracy falls down” is a pretty circular argument to the fact that America stands uniquely in the democratic free world in its liberal control of guns, amoung peers who have lasted several times longer than America's total existance. In fact it’s a completely nonsense response, and one might point out that America is also fairly unique in its seemingly ill-functioning and over reaching government. Nobody reached for their guns after any of the post-9/11 constitution slashing, nor over any of the hundreds of documented abuses of power, corruption or citizens-United bribery that happen all of the time. But sure, if cradling your firearms at night imagining a time when you gloriously rise up in unison against some big-brother style figurehead (while your other freedoms are eroded bit by bit) is an effective coping mechanism I guess that’s a good thing for the controlling oligarchy. I can see why the promote it so heavily.
- Jedi72 7y ago
  All of the west is shaped by America's dominance. Without their influence I suspect many typically western countries would be far more tyranically run.
RankingMember 7y ago
Do we really think that armed citizens would have a chance against the current US military? Weaponry has come pretty far since the days the 2nd amendment was created.
- throwaway8879 7y ago
  Maybe not, but the freedom to have that chance, no matter how small, is worth having. To me personally anyway.
- meddlepal 7y ago
  The point isn't to win against the US military by overpowering it, but it is to cause enough damage, death, and collateral that you bring the US government to the negotiating table when supporters realize the cost of prolonged battle. You also want to make it look as brutal as possible to get foreign support and condemnation on the world stage. Also we really don't know what would happen if the US military was asked to start fighting its own citizens. There is no guarantee those orders would be followed... people don't like killing their neighbors even if they're ordered to do it.
  - RankingMember 7y ago
    I don't think we should have no recourse against a tyrannical government, but I just don't see how anyone is going to realistically go up against the US military and make even a tiny dent. To your latter point, there are constant human rights abuses/crackdowns on dissent in China, but does anyone intervene? Now consider that the US has military might many times China's. Who's going to intervene? I, too, would hope for defection if the US military was told to start attacking US citizens. It's important to note, though, that the military goes to great lengths to break recruits down and rebuild them into "warriors" aka unquestioning killing machines.
    - j_m_b 7y ago
      >I don't think we should have no recourse against a tyrannical government, but I just don't see how anyone is going to realistically go up against the US military and make even a tiny dent. See Vietnam
PauloManrique 7y ago
1) it's false Venezuela disarmed people; 2) to say armed people can stop dictators, it's a totally braindead assumption. Please, go understand how the world works.
- MadSudaca 7y ago
  Of course it's false. You still see lots of armed people, usually criminal gangs, both regime sponsored and independent. However, legally they were prohibited several years ago, I remember this. On your second point, please read the other comments on the thread spawned by my comment, and you'll see why your point is false. I don't claim to know how the world works, but I've seen and learned enough to understand the importance violence has in our society. In most developed nations we're sheltered from it because its application has been made incredibly efficient. However, we shouldn't be fooled to believe that it doesn't play an important role in maintaining our societies.
- haasteagle 7y ago
  Please keep discussion civil, no need to use words like braindead etc. Justify your arguments instead of resorting to name calling. As for the content of your argument. 1) https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-29308509 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-29308509 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-18288430 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-18288430 2) While not directly comparable, several invasions have been successfully warded off by an armed populace. Even the strongest military to ever trod the Earth had little success against uneducated farmers in Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan. I agree these comparisons are flawed.

orf 7y ago

What about the many, many other functioning democracies with incredibly strict gun control?

meddlepal 7y ago
It is all well and good until they stop functioning. Guns empower people to not sit down and just take it when governments consistentenly abuse their power over a long enough period of time.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- orf 7y ago
  Saying “it’s all fine and dandy until the democracy falls down” is a pretty circular argument to the fact that America stands uniquely in the democratic free world in its liberal control of guns, amoung peers who have lasted several times longer than America's total existance. In fact it’s a completely nonsense response, and one might point out that America is also fairly unique in its seemingly ill-functioning and over reaching government. Nobody reached for their guns after any of the post-9/11 constitution slashing, nor over any of the hundreds of documented abuses of power, corruption or citizens-United bribery that happen all of the time. But sure, if cradling your firearms at night imagining a time when you gloriously rise up in unison against some big-brother style figurehead (while your other freedoms are eroded bit by bit) is an effective coping mechanism I guess that’s a good thing for the controlling oligarchy. I can see why the promote it so heavily.
Jedi72 7y ago
All of the west is shaped by America's dominance. Without their influence I suspect many typically western countries would be far more tyranically run.

RankingMember 7y ago

Do we really think that armed citizens would have a chance against the current US military? Weaponry has come pretty far since the days the 2nd amendment was created.

throwaway8879 7y ago
Maybe not, but the freedom to have that chance, no matter how small, is worth having. To me personally anyway.
meddlepal 7y ago
The point isn't to win against the US military by overpowering it, but it is to cause enough damage, death, and collateral that you bring the US government to the negotiating table when supporters realize the cost of prolonged battle. You also want to make it look as brutal as possible to get foreign support and condemnation on the world stage. Also we really don't know what would happen if the US military was asked to start fighting its own citizens. There is no guarantee those orders would be followed... people don't like killing their neighbors even if they're ordered to do it.
- RankingMember 7y ago
  I don't think we should have no recourse against a tyrannical government, but I just don't see how anyone is going to realistically go up against the US military and make even a tiny dent. To your latter point, there are constant human rights abuses/crackdowns on dissent in China, but does anyone intervene? Now consider that the US has military might many times China's. Who's going to intervene? I, too, would hope for defection if the US military was told to start attacking US citizens. It's important to note, though, that the military goes to great lengths to break recruits down and rebuild them into "warriors" aka unquestioning killing machines.
  - j_m_b 7y ago
    >I don't think we should have no recourse against a tyrannical government, but I just don't see how anyone is going to realistically go up against the US military and make even a tiny dent. See Vietnam

PauloManrique 7y ago

1) it's false Venezuela disarmed people; 2) to say armed people can stop dictators, it's a totally braindead assumption. Please, go understand how the world works.

MadSudaca 7y ago
Of course it's false. You still see lots of armed people, usually criminal gangs, both regime sponsored and independent. However, legally they were prohibited several years ago, I remember this. On your second point, please read the other comments on the thread spawned by my comment, and you'll see why your point is false. I don't claim to know how the world works, but I've seen and learned enough to understand the importance violence has in our society. In most developed nations we're sheltered from it because its application has been made incredibly efficient. However, we shouldn't be fooled to believe that it doesn't play an important role in maintaining our societies.
haasteagle 7y ago
Please keep discussion civil, no need to use words like braindead etc. Justify your arguments instead of resorting to name calling. As for the content of your argument. 1) https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-29308509 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-29308509 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-18288430 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-18288430 2) While not directly comparable, several invasions have been successfully warded off by an armed populace. Even the strongest military to ever trod the Earth had little success against uneducated farmers in Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan. I agree these comparisons are flawed.