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Just before my son was born, I was struggling to find a stable job. So I worked on online web dev jobs for some seriously shady characters. I made between 10

Just before my son was born, I was struggling to find a stable job. So I worked on online web dev jobs for some seriously shady characters. I made between 10 and 15 sites that they would buy databases and mass mail users in various industries to try and get them to sign up for really shitty programs. (One for example was a roofing company promising 100's of clients). The amount of work I did on the back end to track everything about the users, fingerprint them and send a report about where in the multipage process they were up to and what they had filled in (but not submitted!) was crazy. My point being, I hated every single moment of that. But I needed to get money for my family. If I had it had a good offer that required spamming forums and bypassing bot catchers, I would have done that too. Sometimes you are in a position where you have to weigh your family's needs vs the general good. One last point, or reiteration. I hated every. Single. Moment. And I am ashamed that I was in that position by my own fault (not picking a more secure job). I won't blame anyone else for it and I agree I did a bad thing. But if I was in that situtation again, I would do it again.

trevyn 7y ago
I'm curious, how deeply did you investigate social services (food banks, shelters, etc.) available in your area? This is not an accusation — I don't claim to know your individual situation. Yet I suspect that in many cases where people say "I'm doing this to feed my family", there is actually a larger component of preserving pride and reluctance to ask for help. The irony is that this is part of what dehumanizes the system and perpetuates the cycle.
- distant_hat 7y ago
  If you are not in the first world, those services are nonexistent.
- marak830 7y ago
  I'm in a country where I'm not a citizen due to my wife's country of birth. I would have had to leave her pregnant here to return to my country of birth.
belorn 7y ago
It is understandable to be willing to do anything for ones family. I also think it is equally understandable if society put people in jail who do cross the line. If you had ended up being charged for spamming, hacking into bot catchers, breaking data protection laws (like GDPR if you live in EU), would you accept that as a acceptable consequence and still have done it to get money for the family? Or would you think that is unfair? This crossroad is for me the line where social support networks should exist. If people find crime to be the only solution in a situation and the legal repercussions to be a fair trade then it is cheaper and more humane to fix the original situation. Your wife's country of birth should support her while she is unable to work because of the pregnancy, and the child should be supported similarly as long they are a child.
- marak830 7y ago
  "If you had ended up being charged for spamming, hacking into bot catchers". I would have setup a way not to be caught. It would be criminal, (this was pre-gdpr it definitely would be now), but I would have done it still. She was supported to an extent, but we knew once she had our son, we wouldn't be able to keep up with necessities. We needed to start buying things then and there.
  - belorn 7y ago
    I think my question is not if you thought you would get caught, but if you think it would be fair trade even in the case you got caught.
    - marak830 7y ago
      Sorry I was tired and I misread the question. Well yes there was some risk involved. but gamblers fallacy and all that.
tomp 7y ago
> But if I was in that situtation again, I would do it again. OK, I'm just going to come out and say it: I'd do it as well. And I cound my blessings often (not every day, though I should) that I don't need to, and unless the world changes massively and high-level experienced software devs are no longer needed, I'll never need to.
social_quotient 7y ago
So how different is this from CRO, form abandonment, tracking, and advanced user analytics? I get the sense that if it pays really well and is for a large company it’s not often judged, in fact it’s amazing, but if it’s for a smaller company with a less clear business model then it seems shady? How do we sure that up? In our technical morality brains?
- heymijo 7y ago
  I really appreciate this question. Illuminated my cognitive dissonance. My mind didn't even think to ask it as I was reading the GPs comment and thinking about that small company as scummy.
  - close04 7y ago
    A big corporation is usually seen as an inanimate monolith that you can't "blame". It's not a person and it has no morals. Just like a soldier's morality is mostly obscured by the "morality" of the whole army. But in small companies you can "see" the people behind them. You can suddenly directly assign blame for what they do. It's no longer a giant doing what giants do, it's no longer a blame split between 10.000 anonymous employees, it's a handful of people being scummy. It's easier to assign blame and judge morals the smaller the group is, all the way down to an individual. You can put a face to the crime.
    - heymijo 7y ago
      Great example! Reading your comment and politics immediately jumped to mind. Specifically taxes, and paying local (a handful of people) vs. federal (the monolith). E.g. paying property taxes for schools vs. federal tax dollars allocated to defense spending. School levies can get particularly heated and draw lots of activism on both sides while the same doesn't seem to hold for defense spending. [this is USA specific]
- greendestiny_re 7y ago
  I tried replying to your comment previously, but it seems you're unaware of it. Your e-mail address posted in another one of your comments isn't working, as well as the official "Contact us" e-mail address on the same website.

trevyn 7y ago

I'm curious, how deeply did you investigate social services (food banks, shelters, etc.) available in your area? This is not an accusation — I don't claim to know your individual situation. Yet I suspect that in many cases where people say "I'm doing this to feed my family", there is actually a larger component of preserving pride and reluctance to ask for help. The irony is that this is part of what dehumanizes the system and perpetuates the cycle.

distant_hat 7y ago
If you are not in the first world, those services are nonexistent.
marak830 7y ago
I'm in a country where I'm not a citizen due to my wife's country of birth. I would have had to leave her pregnant here to return to my country of birth.

belorn 7y ago

It is understandable to be willing to do anything for ones family. I also think it is equally understandable if society put people in jail who do cross the line. If you had ended up being charged for spamming, hacking into bot catchers, breaking data protection laws (like GDPR if you live in EU), would you accept that as a acceptable consequence and still have done it to get money for the family? Or would you think that is unfair? This crossroad is for me the line where social support networks should exist. If people find crime to be the only solution in a situation and the legal repercussions to be a fair trade then it is cheaper and more humane to fix the original situation. Your wife's country of birth should support her while she is unable to work because of the pregnancy, and the child should be supported similarly as long they are a child.

marak830 7y ago
"If you had ended up being charged for spamming, hacking into bot catchers". I would have setup a way not to be caught. It would be criminal, (this was pre-gdpr it definitely would be now), but I would have done it still. She was supported to an extent, but we knew once she had our son, we wouldn't be able to keep up with necessities. We needed to start buying things then and there.
- belorn 7y ago
  I think my question is not if you thought you would get caught, but if you think it would be fair trade even in the case you got caught.
  - marak830 7y ago
    Sorry I was tired and I misread the question. Well yes there was some risk involved. but gamblers fallacy and all that.

tomp 7y ago

> But if I was in that situtation again, I would do it again. OK, I'm just going to come out and say it: I'd do it as well. And I cound my blessings often (not every day, though I should) that I don't need to, and unless the world changes massively and high-level experienced software devs are no longer needed, I'll never need to.

social_quotient 7y ago

So how different is this from CRO, form abandonment, tracking, and advanced user analytics? I get the sense that if it pays really well and is for a large company it’s not often judged, in fact it’s amazing, but if it’s for a smaller company with a less clear business model then it seems shady? How do we sure that up? In our technical morality brains?

heymijo 7y ago
I really appreciate this question. Illuminated my cognitive dissonance. My mind didn't even think to ask it as I was reading the GPs comment and thinking about that small company as scummy.
- close04 7y ago
  A big corporation is usually seen as an inanimate monolith that you can't "blame". It's not a person and it has no morals. Just like a soldier's morality is mostly obscured by the "morality" of the whole army. But in small companies you can "see" the people behind them. You can suddenly directly assign blame for what they do. It's no longer a giant doing what giants do, it's no longer a blame split between 10.000 anonymous employees, it's a handful of people being scummy. It's easier to assign blame and judge morals the smaller the group is, all the way down to an individual. You can put a face to the crime.
  - heymijo 7y ago
    Great example! Reading your comment and politics immediately jumped to mind. Specifically taxes, and paying local (a handful of people) vs. federal (the monolith). E.g. paying property taxes for schools vs. federal tax dollars allocated to defense spending. School levies can get particularly heated and draw lots of activism on both sides while the same doesn't seem to hold for defense spending. [this is USA specific]
greendestiny_re 7y ago
I tried replying to your comment previously, but it seems you're unaware of it. Your e-mail address posted in another one of your comments isn't working, as well as the official "Contact us" e-mail address on the same website.