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We know from first-hand experience here in France that although it is not visually spectacular, tear gas and rubber bullets are highly dangerous and potentially

We know from first-hand experience here in France that although it is not visually spectacular, tear gas and rubber bullets are highly dangerous and potentially lethal weapons. There's the more famous cases like that yellow vests self-proclaimed (and wrongly so) spokesperson who lost an eye to a rubber bullet. There's the old Zineb Redouane who was at home in Marseille when she was hit in the head by a tar gas can (thrown from a launcher, not by hand) and died accordingly. But then, there's also the THOUSANDS of daily anonymous victims of state repression. Because those weapons, along with "sting-ball grenades", get deployed in day-to-day police operations (controlling popular neighborhoods, football matches, free parties). In such hard times, all my thoughts go to the comrades in Hong Kong and their close ones who are going to face very hard times. Solidarity is stronger than any prison!

inferiorhuman 7y ago
We know from first-hand experience here in France that although it is not visually spectacular, tear gas and rubber bullets are highly dangerous and potentially lethal weapons. We know that from the United States too when Oakland police shot rubber bullets at protestors' heads. Per the manufacturer you're supposed to bounce them off the ground at someone, not shoot them directly at someone's head.
- centralsan 7y ago
  Did you and the OP actually watch some of the videos posted in this thread? There are literally gangsters sponsored by the government using weapons to attack women and children in broad daylight, while the police is nowhere to be seen, and tells people to not be outside. There is NO comparison to anything in a civilized western society
  - southerntofu 7y ago
    Did you read any political news between the 19th century and today in so-called "civilized western societies"? French and American history are filled with government-sponsored and industry-sponsored militias murdering workers on strike or angry protesters. In the USA, take a look at the "goon squads" targeted at indigenous communities and their modern equivalent deployed at Standing Rock. Or the FBI's COINTELPRO and government-sanctioned murder of many militants from the Black Panther and other revolutionary organizations. Or the attack on the MOVE movement when police killed 11 people (including 5 children) and destroyed dozens of house from the neighborhood. In mainland France, such actions are usually carried out by the state apparatus, not private militias because owning and carrying guns is mostly illegal (except for hunting, with a license). Still, when the establishment in France was threatened during May 68 protests, De Gaulle called his private counter-revolutionary militia (Services d'Action Civique) to the rescue ; these were founded by Jacques Foccart (the psychopath responsible for "african matters" for De Gaulle) in the context of the war against Algerian liberation (back in 1960). Now, it's the time for me to acknowledge that some people face levels of generalized repression way worse than we do in France/USA/Hong Kong. I'm thinking of people tortured by security services (such as FSB) all around the world for "not thinking right" or just out of suspicion. In the western world, you can speak your mind very openly as long as it does not threaten the exploitative system we live in, while in some countries like Morocco simply insulting the king will get you in prison. Still, this very wild violence is the foundation of every capitalist society and western societies are not exempt from it, contrary to what you seemed to imply. It's just not the general rule in our day-to-day lives (at least in richer neighborhoods).
  - inferiorhuman 7y ago
    There is NO comparison to anything in a civilized western society I'm not well versed in French police history, but there are plenty of examples of government brutality in the United States. This isn't whataboutism as, quite frankly, none of the violence justifies any of the other violence and what China is doing is an atrocious violation of basic human rights. Off the top of my head: Kent State — killing university students MOVE bombing - bombing a residential neighborhood in Philly Iran Contra Affair - CIA allegedly funded drug traffickers allegedly playing a large role in unleashing crack cocaine into American inner cities (wanna talk about violence against youth…) 1968 Democratic National Convention Dakota Access Pipeline protests - protestors were tear gassed and sprayed with water in freezing temperatures And of course Trump's concentration camps. If your argument hinges on the government looking the other way while a private party perpetrates violence I'd start looking at the Homestead Strike, the Ford Massacre, any small town in the south where the KKK + police department venn diagram was basically just a single circle, and of course Blackwater's (of Betsy Devoss fame) Nisour Square Massacre.
    - awakeasleep 7y ago
      None of those are really the same- the closest thing I'm aware of in US history is the Pinkertons- except they were presumably professionals- in HK we're seeing illegal gangs being hired to terrorize the populace
      - inferiorhuman 7y ago
        None of those are really the same- the closest thing I'm aware of in US history is the Pinkertons- except they were presumably professionals- in HK we're seeing illegal gangs being hired to terrorize the populace What is happening in Hong Kong is, presumably, the government using outside groups as a proxy for violence. I've outlined a number of instances of the American government using disproportionate violence and using outside groups to perpetrate disproportionate violence. The one thing I forgot were the allegations that the FBI used Gregory Scarpa (a mob hitman) to extract information might seem closer for you. If you look to the south, there are plenty of instances of the American government funding South American rebel groups (while not the mob, they were not professionals, and did perpetrate plenty of heinous crimes). I mentioned the Contras in the context of the CIA funding drug trafficking into the US (if you don't believe that resulted in an explosion of violence go check out the homicide stats for LA County in the 1990s), but the Contras were extraordinarily violent in their home of Nicaragua. Of course nothing is ever exactly the same. I don't think that making a difference between professional and hobbyist thug is one worth making here. Beyond that I don't think that legal vs illegal is a worth making either. Do you think the PRC is going to sanction the triads (therefor declaring their behavior illegal)? I don't.
- microcolonel 7y ago
  > Per the manufacturer you're supposed to bounce them off the ground at someone, not shoot them directly at someone's head. I think those matters are separate. The ricochet technique is for when you have a rubber bullet or buck shell that is loaded too hot for the engagement distance. When engaging belligerents at short range, some very hot rubber buck (and I'm not sure about single-projectile bullets, but I'd believe it) should be deliberately ricocheted to reduce energy. However, as far as I'm aware, a lot of riot control shot shells today have considerably lower muzzle velocity and/or projectile mass because they are designed for direct fire in these shorter distance engagements; so it's not always misuse when a less-lethal shot shell or bullet is used without deliberate ricochet, and firing directly should reduce the chance of stray/negligent/accidental hits to soft targets. Though generally speaking, these measures in CCP-run Hong Kong are extremely brutal, the proper or improper use of rubber bullets is the least of the worries, as they aren't riots to begin with. The government is starting the fight.

inferiorhuman 7y ago

We know from first-hand experience here in France that although it is not visually spectacular, tear gas and rubber bullets are highly dangerous and potentially lethal weapons. We know that from the United States too when Oakland police shot rubber bullets at protestors' heads. Per the manufacturer you're supposed to bounce them off the ground at someone, not shoot them directly at someone's head.

centralsan 7y ago
Did you and the OP actually watch some of the videos posted in this thread? There are literally gangsters sponsored by the government using weapons to attack women and children in broad daylight, while the police is nowhere to be seen, and tells people to not be outside. There is NO comparison to anything in a civilized western society
- southerntofu 7y ago
  Did you read any political news between the 19th century and today in so-called "civilized western societies"? French and American history are filled with government-sponsored and industry-sponsored militias murdering workers on strike or angry protesters. In the USA, take a look at the "goon squads" targeted at indigenous communities and their modern equivalent deployed at Standing Rock. Or the FBI's COINTELPRO and government-sanctioned murder of many militants from the Black Panther and other revolutionary organizations. Or the attack on the MOVE movement when police killed 11 people (including 5 children) and destroyed dozens of house from the neighborhood. In mainland France, such actions are usually carried out by the state apparatus, not private militias because owning and carrying guns is mostly illegal (except for hunting, with a license). Still, when the establishment in France was threatened during May 68 protests, De Gaulle called his private counter-revolutionary militia (Services d'Action Civique) to the rescue ; these were founded by Jacques Foccart (the psychopath responsible for "african matters" for De Gaulle) in the context of the war against Algerian liberation (back in 1960). Now, it's the time for me to acknowledge that some people face levels of generalized repression way worse than we do in France/USA/Hong Kong. I'm thinking of people tortured by security services (such as FSB) all around the world for "not thinking right" or just out of suspicion. In the western world, you can speak your mind very openly as long as it does not threaten the exploitative system we live in, while in some countries like Morocco simply insulting the king will get you in prison. Still, this very wild violence is the foundation of every capitalist society and western societies are not exempt from it, contrary to what you seemed to imply. It's just not the general rule in our day-to-day lives (at least in richer neighborhoods).
- inferiorhuman 7y ago
  There is NO comparison to anything in a civilized western society I'm not well versed in French police history, but there are plenty of examples of government brutality in the United States. This isn't whataboutism as, quite frankly, none of the violence justifies any of the other violence and what China is doing is an atrocious violation of basic human rights. Off the top of my head: Kent State — killing university students MOVE bombing - bombing a residential neighborhood in Philly Iran Contra Affair - CIA allegedly funded drug traffickers allegedly playing a large role in unleashing crack cocaine into American inner cities (wanna talk about violence against youth…) 1968 Democratic National Convention Dakota Access Pipeline protests - protestors were tear gassed and sprayed with water in freezing temperatures And of course Trump's concentration camps. If your argument hinges on the government looking the other way while a private party perpetrates violence I'd start looking at the Homestead Strike, the Ford Massacre, any small town in the south where the KKK + police department venn diagram was basically just a single circle, and of course Blackwater's (of Betsy Devoss fame) Nisour Square Massacre.
  - awakeasleep 7y ago
    None of those are really the same- the closest thing I'm aware of in US history is the Pinkertons- except they were presumably professionals- in HK we're seeing illegal gangs being hired to terrorize the populace
    - inferiorhuman 7y ago
      None of those are really the same- the closest thing I'm aware of in US history is the Pinkertons- except they were presumably professionals- in HK we're seeing illegal gangs being hired to terrorize the populace What is happening in Hong Kong is, presumably, the government using outside groups as a proxy for violence. I've outlined a number of instances of the American government using disproportionate violence and using outside groups to perpetrate disproportionate violence. The one thing I forgot were the allegations that the FBI used Gregory Scarpa (a mob hitman) to extract information might seem closer for you. If you look to the south, there are plenty of instances of the American government funding South American rebel groups (while not the mob, they were not professionals, and did perpetrate plenty of heinous crimes). I mentioned the Contras in the context of the CIA funding drug trafficking into the US (if you don't believe that resulted in an explosion of violence go check out the homicide stats for LA County in the 1990s), but the Contras were extraordinarily violent in their home of Nicaragua. Of course nothing is ever exactly the same. I don't think that making a difference between professional and hobbyist thug is one worth making here. Beyond that I don't think that legal vs illegal is a worth making either. Do you think the PRC is going to sanction the triads (therefor declaring their behavior illegal)? I don't.
microcolonel 7y ago
> Per the manufacturer you're supposed to bounce them off the ground at someone, not shoot them directly at someone's head. I think those matters are separate. The ricochet technique is for when you have a rubber bullet or buck shell that is loaded too hot for the engagement distance. When engaging belligerents at short range, some very hot rubber buck (and I'm not sure about single-projectile bullets, but I'd believe it) should be deliberately ricocheted to reduce energy. However, as far as I'm aware, a lot of riot control shot shells today have considerably lower muzzle velocity and/or projectile mass because they are designed for direct fire in these shorter distance engagements; so it's not always misuse when a less-lethal shot shell or bullet is used without deliberate ricochet, and firing directly should reduce the chance of stray/negligent/accidental hits to soft targets. Though generally speaking, these measures in CCP-run Hong Kong are extremely brutal, the proper or improper use of rubber bullets is the least of the worries, as they aren't riots to begin with. The government is starting the fight.