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What EPR and Bell's arguments showed is that if you have definite results of experiments at the space-time locations where/when we think the results happened, t

What EPR and Bell's arguments showed is that if you have definite results of experiments at the space-time locations where/when we think the results happened, then there has to be something non-local going on and a foliation is the simplest way to orchestrate that. So either give up a certain kind of definiteness (MW) or introduce a foliation (BM). A foliation is somewhat unpleasant, but there are ways to tease them out of the existing structures of relativity + wave function [0]. As for determinism, that is not the main point for many proponents of BM. Rather, it was about having a clear theory. Let's start at the beginning. We decide to have a theory about particles. What does that mean? Well, there is some stuff with positions and those positions change in time. And that's what BM gives. It explains, immediately, why a wave function is on a configuration space of particles. Having this leads to a variety of important notions. For example, having a position leads to clarity on identical particles, namely, use a space without labels on the particles and the wave functions just work out[1] (disclaimer: I am an author on that one and did part of my PhD thesis on that [4]; my thesis also derives spin as well as the Dirac equation from a Bohmian perspective). Another example is QFT and divergences. From a Bohmian perspective, QFT is best thought of as about wave functions over a configuration space consisting of different disjoint sectors involving different number of particles. To do this, there is a random jump process created (not deterministic!). Thinking about wave functions that work with that, one is led to wave functions where the probability moves from one sector to another appropriately based on this jumping. And that solves, at least in some simple cases, the UV divergence of QFT.[2] The randomness of BM is actually quite interesting. It is all about the Quantum Equilibrium Hypothesis, something which is justified in similar ways to thermodynamics kinds of arguments. In fact, it makes it clear that what is interesting is not why we can't know some things, but why we can know stuff at all. [3] Also, in case you have not seen it, you might want to take a look at a version of MW by some of the Bohmians behind the papers.[4] As with most things, there is a lot of clarity in their perspective. Finally, as for why BM is not more popular, well, let's just say it is rather hard to stay in academia as a Bohmian. I barely tried, largely because academia is unpleasant for a variety of other reasons, but it simply is very hard to get hired when working on unfashionable material. Grants and all that. This is on top of the problem of getting people to change some fundamentally long held beliefs. This goes hand in hand with the fact that standard QM is the thermodynamics version of BM and so QM agrees with BM empirically to the extent that QM makes predictions. That is to say, BM provides the rigorous foundation for the collapse rules. [0]: Can Bohmian Mechanics be Made Relativistic? http://arxiv.org/pdf/1307.1714 http://arxiv.org/pdf/1307.1714 [1]: Fermionic Wavefunctions on Unordered Configuration Space. http://arxiv.org/pdf/1403.3705 http://arxiv.org/pdf/1403.3705 [2]: Bohmian Trajectories for Hamiltonians with Interior–Boundary Conditions. https://arxiv.org/pdf/1809.10235.pdf https://arxiv.org/pdf/1809.10235.pdf [3]: Quantum Equilibrium and the Origin of Absolute Uncertainty. http://arxiv.org/pdf/quant-ph/0308039 http://arxiv.org/pdf/quant-ph/0308039 [4]: Many Worlds and Schrodinger's First Quantum Theory. http://arxiv.org/pdf/0903.22111 http://arxiv.org/pdf/0903.22111 [5]: Connections with Bohmian Mechanics. http://jostylr.com/thesis.pdf http://jostylr.com/thesis.pdf

lisper 7y ago
> We decide to have a theory about particles. I would say that's exactly where Bohm runs off the rails. The fact of the matter is that quantum systems are not particles. They are waves [1]. They can sometimes bunch up into very small spaces and behave to a very good approximation as if they were particles, but they aren't. If you insist that your theory talk about particles, then Bohm is a not-entirely-unreasonable place to end up. But that's kind of like saying that if you insist that your theory tell you how many angels can dance on the head of a pin that 42 is a not-entirely-unreasonable answer. Thanks for the references, those look interesting. P.S. The reference 4 link is broken. I'm guessing you meant https://arxiv.org/abs/0903.2211 https://arxiv.org/abs/0903.2211 --- [1] https://arxiv.org/abs/1204.4616 https://arxiv.org/abs/1204.4616
- jostylr 7y ago
  Yes, that article is what I meant. I read the article you cited. While enjoyable, it does not make its case for me. It very much feels like presuming the wrong ideas of what a particle theory is. --- First, double slit. Points on the screen, wave pattern built up. The natural conclusion is a wave guiding a particle. That's what BM gives. BM does not deny the existence of the wave function. Rather, it gives it a reason for being. The article talks about viewing the wave function collapse as a ballon hitting a needle and popping. But it doesn't really explain why a world full of waves should have anything point-like. It certainly doesn't come from the dynamics of the Schrodinger equation. It just is a statement that the wave should localize when it encounters something already localized. Now, this being the wave function, it is not multiple waves on real space, but rather waves on R^3N space where N is the number of particles which includes those of the detecting screen. But what particles, right? An electron does not have a wave function. There is only one universal wave function. This is not N waves rolling around in 3-space. It is one wave in 3N space and its relation directly to our experience in 3-space is rather obscure. This does not mean you can't have waves. But I think your angel analogy applies to saying "everything is a wave" and MW is not an unreasonable place to end up in. The article also says that particles are not logically consistent with the 2-slit experiment. That is simply false as BM demonstrates. That theory has been mathematically proven to exist and agree with the standard QM predictions. It works. The double slit is explained as particle AND wave, two separate entities. --- Another piece of the article was about a confined wave that instantly expands. It seems to get at the heart of the misconception. There is no notion in BM of having to confine waves to make them particle like. Rather, BM allows waves to expand as they do. They can be their own thing, doing whatever they like. The particle aspect is handled by the particles which can do what the wave tells them to do. In the Dirac version of BM, the velocity can never be greater than the speed of light for the particle, basically by construction. To the extent that a narrowly confined wave function leads to problems, this would say, those would not be the relevant wave functions. One can always replace such a sharp thing with a close enough in L2 approximation to not have that kind of sharp behavior. This gets into the domain of the Hamiltonian which can have some pretty important aspects to the evolution. --- The vacuum and movement. This is just me spitballing, but in the ground state, according to BM, particles will not move. They just sit there. So it is quite possible for the vacuum to look empty (nothing moving), but there is plenty of stuff out there in terms of particles. Then when someone moves, they see the particles moving. Not sure if this is reasonable or not, but it is my thoughts on how one can have a vacuum with "no particle" and then have particles present with a relative motion. --- The final part I will comment on is that of QFT. This would presumably be the strongest of the arguments. But here, the field of operators is fundamentally different than the wave function. As presented in the article, we have a field of operators based on EM. They operate on wave functions over Fock space, which is the union of R^3N spaces (removing collisions and replacing that with boundary conditions). Is the claim that the operator field's expectation values are the reality of our experience? I am guessing the claim is that if I want to verify my chair's placement then I am supposed to compute the expectation values of those operators at the space-time point and out pops a chair? The Bohmian version of this is that we use the wave function, evolving according to a Hamiltonian which may contain an operator valued-field, to guide the particles, including controlling the creation and annihilation of the particles. We can then do an analysis of the theory and come up with predictions, generally in the form of operators as observables. These are deduced, not postulated. A chair is where it is because the chair's particles are where they are. It is a conceptually simple process to map my experience to what the theory is talking about. Having a simple map from my experience to some state of something in the theory is a really nice feature. It is not crucial, but verifiability is greatly helped by this. --- A very important part of BM is that operators as observables is not postulated, but deduced. This has major advantages in that it is practically trivial to write down a Bohmian theory on a manifold. The standard stuff has problems, such as what the momentum operator becomes. In BM, you write down the theory and then one can analyze to see what would emerge, if anything, to take the place of that observable. An application of this is creating a quantum theory on shape space, namely, the space of relative configurations that Julian Barbour likes to work with. It is a very natural space to consider and Bohmian mecahnics can accommodate it easily: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1808.06844.pdf https://arxiv.org/pdf/1808.06844.pdf

lisper 7y ago

> We decide to have a theory about particles. I would say that's exactly where Bohm runs off the rails. The fact of the matter is that quantum systems are not particles. They are waves [1]. They can sometimes bunch up into very small spaces and behave to a very good approximation as if they were particles, but they aren't. If you insist that your theory talk about particles, then Bohm is a not-entirely-unreasonable place to end up. But that's kind of like saying that if you insist that your theory tell you how many angels can dance on the head of a pin that 42 is a not-entirely-unreasonable answer. Thanks for the references, those look interesting. P.S. The reference 4 link is broken. I'm guessing you meant https://arxiv.org/abs/0903.2211 https://arxiv.org/abs/0903.2211 --- [1] https://arxiv.org/abs/1204.4616 https://arxiv.org/abs/1204.4616

jostylr 7y ago
Yes, that article is what I meant. I read the article you cited. While enjoyable, it does not make its case for me. It very much feels like presuming the wrong ideas of what a particle theory is. --- First, double slit. Points on the screen, wave pattern built up. The natural conclusion is a wave guiding a particle. That's what BM gives. BM does not deny the existence of the wave function. Rather, it gives it a reason for being. The article talks about viewing the wave function collapse as a ballon hitting a needle and popping. But it doesn't really explain why a world full of waves should have anything point-like. It certainly doesn't come from the dynamics of the Schrodinger equation. It just is a statement that the wave should localize when it encounters something already localized. Now, this being the wave function, it is not multiple waves on real space, but rather waves on R^3N space where N is the number of particles which includes those of the detecting screen. But what particles, right? An electron does not have a wave function. There is only one universal wave function. This is not N waves rolling around in 3-space. It is one wave in 3N space and its relation directly to our experience in 3-space is rather obscure. This does not mean you can't have waves. But I think your angel analogy applies to saying "everything is a wave" and MW is not an unreasonable place to end up in. The article also says that particles are not logically consistent with the 2-slit experiment. That is simply false as BM demonstrates. That theory has been mathematically proven to exist and agree with the standard QM predictions. It works. The double slit is explained as particle AND wave, two separate entities. --- Another piece of the article was about a confined wave that instantly expands. It seems to get at the heart of the misconception. There is no notion in BM of having to confine waves to make them particle like. Rather, BM allows waves to expand as they do. They can be their own thing, doing whatever they like. The particle aspect is handled by the particles which can do what the wave tells them to do. In the Dirac version of BM, the velocity can never be greater than the speed of light for the particle, basically by construction. To the extent that a narrowly confined wave function leads to problems, this would say, those would not be the relevant wave functions. One can always replace such a sharp thing with a close enough in L2 approximation to not have that kind of sharp behavior. This gets into the domain of the Hamiltonian which can have some pretty important aspects to the evolution. --- The vacuum and movement. This is just me spitballing, but in the ground state, according to BM, particles will not move. They just sit there. So it is quite possible for the vacuum to look empty (nothing moving), but there is plenty of stuff out there in terms of particles. Then when someone moves, they see the particles moving. Not sure if this is reasonable or not, but it is my thoughts on how one can have a vacuum with "no particle" and then have particles present with a relative motion. --- The final part I will comment on is that of QFT. This would presumably be the strongest of the arguments. But here, the field of operators is fundamentally different than the wave function. As presented in the article, we have a field of operators based on EM. They operate on wave functions over Fock space, which is the union of R^3N spaces (removing collisions and replacing that with boundary conditions). Is the claim that the operator field's expectation values are the reality of our experience? I am guessing the claim is that if I want to verify my chair's placement then I am supposed to compute the expectation values of those operators at the space-time point and out pops a chair? The Bohmian version of this is that we use the wave function, evolving according to a Hamiltonian which may contain an operator valued-field, to guide the particles, including controlling the creation and annihilation of the particles. We can then do an analysis of the theory and come up with predictions, generally in the form of operators as observables. These are deduced, not postulated. A chair is where it is because the chair's particles are where they are. It is a conceptually simple process to map my experience to what the theory is talking about. Having a simple map from my experience to some state of something in the theory is a really nice feature. It is not crucial, but verifiability is greatly helped by this. --- A very important part of BM is that operators as observables is not postulated, but deduced. This has major advantages in that it is practically trivial to write down a Bohmian theory on a manifold. The standard stuff has problems, such as what the momentum operator becomes. In BM, you write down the theory and then one can analyze to see what would emerge, if anything, to take the place of that observable. An application of this is creating a quantum theory on shape space, namely, the space of relative configurations that Julian Barbour likes to work with. It is a very natural space to consider and Bohmian mecahnics can accommodate it easily: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1808.06844.pdf https://arxiv.org/pdf/1808.06844.pdf