4 ms·

I would predict Apple falls into this category.

by vecplane 7y ago

sacheendra 7y ago
Looking a the source code of their website, they seems to use react for at least part of it.
- dmitriid 7y ago
  Whatever they use, Apple's product pages are definitely handcrafted. Especially around the time of big releases. The use of a framework/library does not preclude handcrafting.
  - qudat 7y ago
    Aren't all webpages hand-crafted then?
    - reaperducer 7y ago
      Not necessarily. I don't think people expect to have to individually map pixels in their PNG's in order for a page to be hand-crafted, either. But it certainly is a gray area.
    - derefr 7y ago
      If a program generates something, and then a human hand-curates it, that’s maybe hand crafting (the program is being used as a tool by the human artisan.) But if a program generates something, and then just directly serves the result, it is certainly not hand-crafted. The distinction comes down to whether the final result is something a human signed off on and took responsibility for, or whether it’s just the result of blind rule-following.
    - kadendogthing 7y ago
      Yes. I don't know why HN likes to pretend they're exceptions to patterns and processes that came about for a number of reasons. In this specific case, the hand crafted HTML that I've come across in my lifetime is usually absolute garbage. I can normally see how the developer who wrote it thinks they're being clever or nifty, and dare I say it "clean", but it usually falls short and causes more harm than good. So imagine we as an industry organically build tools to address this. 10 years later it's pretty good, but like 5 major websites still handcraft things because they have complicated user experiences with a broad user base. We then get dork heads who see this, believe they're part of the exception, despite not having anything remotely close to the userbase or requirements of these websites, refuse to understand why certain things are the way they are, and think they're above these processes and frameworks despite not having invested any real time or effort into the skills necessary to justify not using these frameworks or fabricated HTML. And the worst part is it's just HTML. And we still get it wrong. TL;DR Programmers think they're better than they really are. Use the frameworks.
      - z3t4 7y ago
        Some programmers confuse XML with semantic HTML. XML is hard to hand write, while semantic HTML is easy and forgiving. CSS on the other hand is more difficult, but its also much more powerful and still easier to hand-write compared to other XML-markups variants (native UI).
      - inimino 7y ago
        Honestly if you question the overall quality of hand-written HTML (by people who care to hand-write it) with the overall output of tools, I kind of wonder what parallel universe you come from. I've never yet see anyone argue that the reason tools took over the writing of HTML is because hand-written HTML wasn't good enough.
        kadendogthing 7y ago
        > I kind of wonder what parallel universe you come from. The one where I don't value bespoke development just because it's bespoke? The universe where I have to actually quantify what's good and what isn't? The worst kind of comments related to this discussion are always the ones that are insufferably offended that they can't out perform decades of experience and knowledge without doing anything. >I've never yet see anyone argue that the reason tools took over the writing of HTML is because hand-written HTML wasn't good enough. Check who you're listening to? It's a fairly common argument.
        inimino 7y ago
        My position is based on decades of actually looking at HTML, writing it, creating a few web authoring tools along the way, and participating tangentially in HTML5 standardization. I'm not insufferably offended by what you think I can or can't do (I couldn't care less) I just honestly can't fathom, after 20 years of looking at HTML produced by hand and by tools, how anyone could think the tools produce better markup if you're actually talking about inherent quality of the end result. Cheaper and faster, maybe, with a lower learning curve, sure, but better? I don't buy it.
        chasontherobot 7y ago
reaperducer 7y ago
I know that Apple's trashcan Mac Pro page was hand-crafted. There was an article about it on the intarwebs at the time. But I was actually thinking of a different company. I'd forgotten about Apple.
- MaxLeiter 7y ago
  Does anyone have a link for this website? The Mac Pro may have been poorly designed but the website was a pleasure to scroll through
mattl 7y ago
Apple.com has a ton of static pages and then a mix of WebObjects apps and some other frameworks. There’s also a WordPress blog or two on there. A few years ago they messed up the Apache config and next.com worked as apple.com for a while.
- cptcobalt 7y ago
  None of the WebObjects mumbo-jumbo is any news, but there's a WordPress blog on Apple.com? Where? (Another fun one, braeburncapital.com used to work as apple.com for a bit—I think even longer than next.com.)
  - Kluny 7y ago
    Not sure, but Facebook and Reddit's internal blogs are both WordPress as well.

I would predict Apple falls into this category.

sacheendra 7y ago

Looking a the source code of their website, they seems to use react for at least part of it.

dmitriid 7y ago
Whatever they use, Apple's product pages are definitely handcrafted. Especially around the time of big releases. The use of a framework/library does not preclude handcrafting.
- qudat 7y ago
  Aren't all webpages hand-crafted then?
  - reaperducer 7y ago
    Not necessarily. I don't think people expect to have to individually map pixels in their PNG's in order for a page to be hand-crafted, either. But it certainly is a gray area.
  - derefr 7y ago
    If a program generates something, and then a human hand-curates it, that’s maybe hand crafting (the program is being used as a tool by the human artisan.) But if a program generates something, and then just directly serves the result, it is certainly not hand-crafted. The distinction comes down to whether the final result is something a human signed off on and took responsibility for, or whether it’s just the result of blind rule-following.
  - kadendogthing 7y ago
    Yes. I don't know why HN likes to pretend they're exceptions to patterns and processes that came about for a number of reasons. In this specific case, the hand crafted HTML that I've come across in my lifetime is usually absolute garbage. I can normally see how the developer who wrote it thinks they're being clever or nifty, and dare I say it "clean", but it usually falls short and causes more harm than good. So imagine we as an industry organically build tools to address this. 10 years later it's pretty good, but like 5 major websites still handcraft things because they have complicated user experiences with a broad user base. We then get dork heads who see this, believe they're part of the exception, despite not having anything remotely close to the userbase or requirements of these websites, refuse to understand why certain things are the way they are, and think they're above these processes and frameworks despite not having invested any real time or effort into the skills necessary to justify not using these frameworks or fabricated HTML. And the worst part is it's just HTML. And we still get it wrong. TL;DR Programmers think they're better than they really are. Use the frameworks.
    - z3t4 7y ago
      Some programmers confuse XML with semantic HTML. XML is hard to hand write, while semantic HTML is easy and forgiving. CSS on the other hand is more difficult, but its also much more powerful and still easier to hand-write compared to other XML-markups variants (native UI).
    - inimino 7y ago
      Honestly if you question the overall quality of hand-written HTML (by people who care to hand-write it) with the overall output of tools, I kind of wonder what parallel universe you come from. I've never yet see anyone argue that the reason tools took over the writing of HTML is because hand-written HTML wasn't good enough.
      - kadendogthing 7y ago
        > I kind of wonder what parallel universe you come from. The one where I don't value bespoke development just because it's bespoke? The universe where I have to actually quantify what's good and what isn't? The worst kind of comments related to this discussion are always the ones that are insufferably offended that they can't out perform decades of experience and knowledge without doing anything. >I've never yet see anyone argue that the reason tools took over the writing of HTML is because hand-written HTML wasn't good enough. Check who you're listening to? It's a fairly common argument.
        inimino 7y ago
        My position is based on decades of actually looking at HTML, writing it, creating a few web authoring tools along the way, and participating tangentially in HTML5 standardization. I'm not insufferably offended by what you think I can or can't do (I couldn't care less) I just honestly can't fathom, after 20 years of looking at HTML produced by hand and by tools, how anyone could think the tools produce better markup if you're actually talking about inherent quality of the end result. Cheaper and faster, maybe, with a lower learning curve, sure, but better? I don't buy it.
      - chasontherobot 7y ago

reaperducer 7y ago

I know that Apple's trashcan Mac Pro page was hand-crafted. There was an article about it on the intarwebs at the time. But I was actually thinking of a different company. I'd forgotten about Apple.

MaxLeiter 7y ago
Does anyone have a link for this website? The Mac Pro may have been poorly designed but the website was a pleasure to scroll through

mattl 7y ago

Apple.com has a ton of static pages and then a mix of WebObjects apps and some other frameworks. There’s also a WordPress blog or two on there. A few years ago they messed up the Apache config and next.com worked as apple.com for a while.

cptcobalt 7y ago
None of the WebObjects mumbo-jumbo is any news, but there's a WordPress blog on Apple.com? Where? (Another fun one, braeburncapital.com used to work as apple.com for a bit—I think even longer than next.com.)
- Kluny 7y ago
  Not sure, but Facebook and Reddit's internal blogs are both WordPress as well.