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> If the song has any musical substance, it can be played on a piano alone The level of ignorance and pretentiousness in this sentence is mind boggling. The hu

> If the song has any musical substance, it can be played on a piano alone The level of ignorance and pretentiousness in this sentence is mind boggling. The human voice is the ultimate instrument, not the piano. Hell, we have not even had the piano for that long. Words can not be expressed on a piano. That is what makes singing and rapping unique, you are able to tell a story combined with music. Strange Fruit would not have the same meaning or significance without the words attached to it, neither would many songs. Also, Miles Davis himself loved and embraced rap. He literally made a jazz/rap album. Jazz is a dying genre in the united states, because American audiences are tired of hearing it, and there have not been any groundbreaking new jazz artists in the last 30 years. Rap is one of the most interesting and innovative genres of music now, and literally incorporates and uses so much jazz. To Pimp a Butterfly is a great example of a rap album that is heavily influenced by jazz. It was also a wildly popular album and one of the most critically acclaimed rap albums ever.

F-0X 7y ago
>The human voice is the ultimate instrument. I strongly disagree. A voice is so limited in every single way. There is so much more that can be done with a proper musical instrument, especially those capable of multiple simultaneous notes. The piano is a good example.
- diegoperini 7y ago
  You can always have multiple people singing if you don't count that as cheating. If limits are the deciding factor of an instrument's ultimateness, then I raise that a computer with quality sound hardware + hard drives full of real world audio samples + programmable oscilators is the ultimate instrument. Now that I played my role as captain obvious, fuck it, piano is really the best! (No sarcasm)
- szemet 7y ago
  Traditional (not electric) piano have very inflexible tuning options. Human voice, violin, trombone, ... much better in this regard. Even if you not thinking about "exotic"(at least for westerners) scales, but simple&clear western accords like just intonation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_intonation#Singing_and_scale-free_instruments https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_intonation#Singing_and_sc... edit - music recommendation: https://ziaspace.bandcamp.com/album/drum-n-space https://ziaspace.bandcamp.com/album/drum-n-space
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
mythrwy 7y ago
This album? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Egauj-7RnJc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Egauj-7RnJc (with 120 upvotes 384 downvotes at time of posting). I'm not sure about critical acclaim, but it seems many youtube watchers at least don't like it.
- i_am_proteus 7y ago
  No, this album by Kendrick Lamar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9fN-8NjrvI&list=PLu4sMtaJ7fGvgwHgpM7Gafe0eebrjimoU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9fN-8NjrvI&list=PLu4sMtaJ7f... Billboard, Rolling Stone, and Pitchfork's No. 1 of 2015. Grammy nominated for Album of 2015, Grammy won for Rap Album of 2015. It features jazz musicians such as Lalah Hathaway, Robert Glasper, Kamasi Washington, Thundercat, Ambrose Akinmusire, and Terrace Martin. Robert Glasper deserves a mention in his own right: he's released albums spanning jazz, R&B, and hip hop and often crossing between genres.
  - mythrwy 7y ago
    Hey that album is actually good!
echelon 7y ago
> The human voice is the ultimate instrument Thanks to biology, not everyone can sing. Barring physical disability, musical instruments are accessible to a much wider audience. Not to mention that there are a wealth of instruments to choose from.
- EdwardDiego 7y ago
  > Thanks to biology, not everyone can sing. According to this, nearly everybody can, with training. https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/02/everyone-can-sing/385340/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/02/everyone-... I used to be a singer when I was younger, and I was good. But then I gave it up and without the continuous practice, my ability to carry a tune tunefully has severely diminished - my biology remains the same (well, add a few years), but my level of skill has dropped off, and hence so has my singing.
  - echelon 7y ago
    Tone isn't the only issue. Some people simply lack range.
    - labster 7y ago
      Tonic and dynamic range can both be improved with an exercise regime, just like any other physical activity.
WalterBright 7y ago
> Words can not be expressed on a piano. True, but Herb Alpert comes very close to making a trumpet talk! Maurice Andre has a better tone, but Alpert's beats everyone in expressiveness.
WalterBright 7y ago
> there have not been any groundbreaking new jazz artists in the last 30 years Amy Winehouse
- high_5 7y ago
  Amy Winehouse had a beautiful voice and really smart backup producers and musicians that refreshed and rehashed old styles of music as new. Beautiful and enjoyable, but not groundbreaking.
  - WalterBright 7y ago
    As I really enjoy her take on jazz, a genre I'm not really a big fan of, it's groundbreaking as far as I'm concerned :-) I wouldn't agree she had a beautiful voice, either (Julie Andrews has an incredible voice). It was the way she used it that was new and great. She wrote her own music, I don't think she was a tool of the music producers. I haven't heard anything like her take before or since.
3131s 7y ago
> there have not been any groundbreaking new jazz artists in the last 30 years. Speaking of ignorance... > [rap] literally incorporates and uses so much jazz. It incorporates a lot of jazz via sampling, but otherwise unless we're talking about freestyling then it's missing the central component of jazz.
- maceurt 7y ago
  > It incorporates a lot of jazz via sampling, but otherwise unless we're talking about freestyling then it's missing the central component of jazz. No it doesn't. Rap uses a lot of the same vocal licks that jazz uses, and uses a lot of the same rhythmic ideas too. Also, rap's focus on the improvisational aspect of their work is very much related to jazz. So many of the best rap songs in the world were partly improvised on the spot. You even have rappers like Jay-Z and Lil Wayne who don't write down their lyrics, they just go into the booth and rap.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
darkpuma 7y ago
A piano rendition of a song previously only sung can still be recognized as that same song. However if you sing a song previously only heard on piano, recognizing that song might not be so easy. Although now that I think about it, the only instrument that can really compete with throat singing is the Jew's harp. So in that limited respect I think you might be right.
ves 7y ago
esperanza spalding? jacob collier?
jiberwarrior 7y ago
> and there have not been any groundbreaking new jazz artists in the last 30 years. I strongly disagree with this statement, the music is out there if you were to look. Jazz has moved past the standard 'swing and ballad' forms that were popular throughout the late 20th century, and most listeners can't shake the roots of the genre from what defines the modern equivalent; It would be akin to die-hard old school rap fans denying that rap in it's current state should even be considered rap. >That is what makes singing and rapping unique, you are able to tell a story combined with music. What makes jazz (particularly the instrumental kind) unique is being able to invoke emotions and tell a story without being bound to some language barrier, an abstraction that transcends spoken word, that speaks to the pattern matching automata of the language part of our brains, regardless of race, language, or background.
- qtplatypus 7y ago
  Isn’t the ability to invoke emotions without being bound to a language something that all instrumental musics have?
  - jiberwarrior 7y ago
    You are right, I over-specialized my definition I suppose, but I still stand by my point of this differentiation between instrumental music and lyrical music. With Instrumental music, the challenge becomes conveying ideas over a non-verbal medium, a challenge which is non-existent in music with heavy lyrical emphasis.
- throwaway8879 7y ago
  > Jazz has moved past the standard 'swing and ballad' forms that were popular throughout the late 20th century I mean, that's not really saying much. Jazz moved past the standard stuff with Ornette Coleman, Coltrane etc in the late 50s and early 60s. Miles Davis' Bitches Brew led to the whole jazz fusion thing a bit later. I somewhat agree with the GP about no groundbreaking new jazz artists. There are many great musicians great at their instruments today, for sure. But I just don't hear anything radically new happening. Although I do admit that it may be due to my own biases.
kvonhorn 7y ago
> Strange Fruit For the uninitiated: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ughAVo2ZAag https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ughAVo2ZAag This is a song whose musical substance is conveyed through the lyrics. This is a perfect example of a song that cannot be played on the piano alone.
aasasd 7y ago
You turn the author's argument around and then make a statement even more pretentious and wrong. Neither piano nor voice nor even orchestra are ‘ultimate instruments,’ for the simple reason that timbre- and rhythm-oriented music exist. Saying that any particular instruments or styles are the measures of ‘musical substance’ is equal to asking that there be less of different music—which is the ultimate arrogance that you can apply to music.
- maceurt 7y ago
  The human voice is the original musical instrument, and humans have evolved to specifically listen to the human voice. I love the piano, but I don't think it is a stretch to say that for humans, the human voice is the ultimate instrument. I don't mean to sound pretentious, but if you just look at the popularity of different instruments, voice is the runaway favorite. The majority of the world listens to mostly voice as the primary instrument. To call it the ultimate instrument is not a stretch at all since it is the oldest and most popular instrument in human history.

F-0X 7y ago

>The human voice is the ultimate instrument. I strongly disagree. A voice is so limited in every single way. There is so much more that can be done with a proper musical instrument, especially those capable of multiple simultaneous notes. The piano is a good example.

diegoperini 7y ago
You can always have multiple people singing if you don't count that as cheating. If limits are the deciding factor of an instrument's ultimateness, then I raise that a computer with quality sound hardware + hard drives full of real world audio samples + programmable oscilators is the ultimate instrument. Now that I played my role as captain obvious, fuck it, piano is really the best! (No sarcasm)
szemet 7y ago
Traditional (not electric) piano have very inflexible tuning options. Human voice, violin, trombone, ... much better in this regard. Even if you not thinking about "exotic"(at least for westerners) scales, but simple&clear western accords like just intonation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_intonation#Singing_and_scale-free_instruments https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_intonation#Singing_and_sc... edit - music recommendation: https://ziaspace.bandcamp.com/album/drum-n-space https://ziaspace.bandcamp.com/album/drum-n-space
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

mythrwy 7y ago

This album? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Egauj-7RnJc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Egauj-7RnJc (with 120 upvotes 384 downvotes at time of posting). I'm not sure about critical acclaim, but it seems many youtube watchers at least don't like it.

i_am_proteus 7y ago
No, this album by Kendrick Lamar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9fN-8NjrvI&list=PLu4sMtaJ7fGvgwHgpM7Gafe0eebrjimoU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9fN-8NjrvI&list=PLu4sMtaJ7f... Billboard, Rolling Stone, and Pitchfork's No. 1 of 2015. Grammy nominated for Album of 2015, Grammy won for Rap Album of 2015. It features jazz musicians such as Lalah Hathaway, Robert Glasper, Kamasi Washington, Thundercat, Ambrose Akinmusire, and Terrace Martin. Robert Glasper deserves a mention in his own right: he's released albums spanning jazz, R&B, and hip hop and often crossing between genres.
- mythrwy 7y ago
  Hey that album is actually good!

echelon 7y ago

> The human voice is the ultimate instrument Thanks to biology, not everyone can sing. Barring physical disability, musical instruments are accessible to a much wider audience. Not to mention that there are a wealth of instruments to choose from.

EdwardDiego 7y ago
> Thanks to biology, not everyone can sing. According to this, nearly everybody can, with training. https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/02/everyone-can-sing/385340/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/02/everyone-... I used to be a singer when I was younger, and I was good. But then I gave it up and without the continuous practice, my ability to carry a tune tunefully has severely diminished - my biology remains the same (well, add a few years), but my level of skill has dropped off, and hence so has my singing.
- echelon 7y ago
  Tone isn't the only issue. Some people simply lack range.
  - labster 7y ago
    Tonic and dynamic range can both be improved with an exercise regime, just like any other physical activity.

WalterBright 7y ago

> Words can not be expressed on a piano. True, but Herb Alpert comes very close to making a trumpet talk! Maurice Andre has a better tone, but Alpert's beats everyone in expressiveness.

WalterBright 7y ago

> there have not been any groundbreaking new jazz artists in the last 30 years Amy Winehouse

high_5 7y ago
Amy Winehouse had a beautiful voice and really smart backup producers and musicians that refreshed and rehashed old styles of music as new. Beautiful and enjoyable, but not groundbreaking.
- WalterBright 7y ago
  As I really enjoy her take on jazz, a genre I'm not really a big fan of, it's groundbreaking as far as I'm concerned :-) I wouldn't agree she had a beautiful voice, either (Julie Andrews has an incredible voice). It was the way she used it that was new and great. She wrote her own music, I don't think she was a tool of the music producers. I haven't heard anything like her take before or since.

3131s 7y ago

> there have not been any groundbreaking new jazz artists in the last 30 years. Speaking of ignorance... > [rap] literally incorporates and uses so much jazz. It incorporates a lot of jazz via sampling, but otherwise unless we're talking about freestyling then it's missing the central component of jazz.

maceurt 7y ago
> It incorporates a lot of jazz via sampling, but otherwise unless we're talking about freestyling then it's missing the central component of jazz. No it doesn't. Rap uses a lot of the same vocal licks that jazz uses, and uses a lot of the same rhythmic ideas too. Also, rap's focus on the improvisational aspect of their work is very much related to jazz. So many of the best rap songs in the world were partly improvised on the spot. You even have rappers like Jay-Z and Lil Wayne who don't write down their lyrics, they just go into the booth and rap.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

darkpuma 7y ago

A piano rendition of a song previously only sung can still be recognized as that same song. However if you sing a song previously only heard on piano, recognizing that song might not be so easy. Although now that I think about it, the only instrument that can really compete with throat singing is the Jew's harp. So in that limited respect I think you might be right.

ves 7y ago

esperanza spalding? jacob collier?

jiberwarrior 7y ago

> and there have not been any groundbreaking new jazz artists in the last 30 years. I strongly disagree with this statement, the music is out there if you were to look. Jazz has moved past the standard 'swing and ballad' forms that were popular throughout the late 20th century, and most listeners can't shake the roots of the genre from what defines the modern equivalent; It would be akin to die-hard old school rap fans denying that rap in it's current state should even be considered rap. >That is what makes singing and rapping unique, you are able to tell a story combined with music. What makes jazz (particularly the instrumental kind) unique is being able to invoke emotions and tell a story without being bound to some language barrier, an abstraction that transcends spoken word, that speaks to the pattern matching automata of the language part of our brains, regardless of race, language, or background.

qtplatypus 7y ago
Isn’t the ability to invoke emotions without being bound to a language something that all instrumental musics have?
- jiberwarrior 7y ago
  You are right, I over-specialized my definition I suppose, but I still stand by my point of this differentiation between instrumental music and lyrical music. With Instrumental music, the challenge becomes conveying ideas over a non-verbal medium, a challenge which is non-existent in music with heavy lyrical emphasis.
throwaway8879 7y ago
> Jazz has moved past the standard 'swing and ballad' forms that were popular throughout the late 20th century I mean, that's not really saying much. Jazz moved past the standard stuff with Ornette Coleman, Coltrane etc in the late 50s and early 60s. Miles Davis' Bitches Brew led to the whole jazz fusion thing a bit later. I somewhat agree with the GP about no groundbreaking new jazz artists. There are many great musicians great at their instruments today, for sure. But I just don't hear anything radically new happening. Although I do admit that it may be due to my own biases.

kvonhorn 7y ago

> Strange Fruit For the uninitiated: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ughAVo2ZAag https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ughAVo2ZAag This is a song whose musical substance is conveyed through the lyrics. This is a perfect example of a song that cannot be played on the piano alone.

aasasd 7y ago

You turn the author's argument around and then make a statement even more pretentious and wrong. Neither piano nor voice nor even orchestra are ‘ultimate instruments,’ for the simple reason that timbre- and rhythm-oriented music exist. Saying that any particular instruments or styles are the measures of ‘musical substance’ is equal to asking that there be less of different music—which is the ultimate arrogance that you can apply to music.

maceurt 7y ago
The human voice is the original musical instrument, and humans have evolved to specifically listen to the human voice. I love the piano, but I don't think it is a stretch to say that for humans, the human voice is the ultimate instrument. I don't mean to sound pretentious, but if you just look at the popularity of different instruments, voice is the runaway favorite. The majority of the world listens to mostly voice as the primary instrument. To call it the ultimate instrument is not a stretch at all since it is the oldest and most popular instrument in human history.