4 ms·

I agree with you in theory, but I think this gets hairy pretty quick. Should the requirement apply to a personal blog? What if that person is associated with s

I agree with you in theory, but I think this gets hairy pretty quick. Should the requirement apply to a personal blog? What if that person is associated with something important and publishes interesting/useful information on their blog? What if they sell things? What if they only sell things by mail order and the site is just an ad? What if they have ads? Level headed enforcement is one important aspect, but I feel like good legislation is really hard here.

tyingq 7y ago
US airline websites have had to be accessible for quite a while now via a DOT directive. I agree some thought needs to be put into a rollout, but we do have some precedent.
DanBC 7y ago
Most law draws a distinction between something purely personal, and something done commercially.
- Misdicorl 7y ago
  My point is that the line gets blurry on the internet really fast
  - beatgammit 7y ago
    Precisely. What if I decide to put ads on my personal blog because I've noticed that I have enough readers to make that make sense? Am I now a business? What if I decide to sell a plush design I made because people kept asking about it? Let's say that it becomes so popular that I choose to make a business out of it, at which point do I need to start making my website "accessible"? Is it when I file for a business license, or when I reach some amount in sales? Personally, I don't understand the "accessibility as a right" crowd. Yes I want the web to be accessible to people with disabilities, but I don't think it makes sense to force people to cater to any particular group. Perhaps it makes sense as a requirement for publicly listed companies, and absolutely for any government entity or entities that receive government funding, but not for the average person or small business owner, and the internet blurs the line between individual and company.
liability 7y ago
Nobody has made me install a ramp to my front door, because I don't operate a business open to the public out of my home. So I'm not too concerned. (That said, I would sooner make my blog accessible to the vision impaired than make my home wheelchair friendly. Web accessibility is trivial unless you go out of your way to do fancy shit with style sheets and JavaScript, or unless you do dumb shit like put important text in images with no alt-text (just... why??))
- worldofmatthew 7y ago
  The biggest issue are screen readers which often work awfully with modern web standards. On top of most web designers being unable to test with them just to high cost.
  - floren 7y ago
    I don't know that the problem lies with modern web standards so much as modern web practices. I don't think there's anything in the HTML5 standard that makes screen readers shit the bed, but pervasive Javascript certainly can.
    - worldofmatthew 7y ago
      Many accessibility tools shit the bed on CSS.
- Misdicorl 7y ago
  But the line between 'the business' and personal is often blurry. Must Elon Musk's tweets satisfy these requirements? What about a senior software engineer's blog which goes into some detail on a Google cloud outage?
  - Misdicorl 7y ago
    To really drive the point home- what if both the engineer and Google earn money from the blog because it runs AdWords?
buro9 7y ago
if company and (company.headcount > x or company.revenue > y) then must_support_all_people end
- dbg31415 7y ago
  This is the best way to put it. But... What if they are 95% headcount and want to do 80% compliance? It just gets fuzzy fast. And think of Amazon Prime... I love that I can order something and it comes the same day, or next day. That same level of service isn't offered in Sydney, or Rural North Dakota... would we require that of Amazon? Seems crazy. So the extrapolated argument there is, "You can order a pizza on the phone, why do you need the app?" Likely some app-focused discount code the potential customer is trying to invoke. Seems like a lot of hassle for $2 off the pizza. Or, again, Rural North Dakota, where you can't get a fast internet connection... is Netflix required to serve that area? I mean... can't we say, "We're only going to service people with a fast connection, modern OS, and who are willing to install our DRM plugins?" I think it's OK for businesses not to treat everyone exactly the same is all I'm getting at. And, as a small business owner, I want to be able to deny my services to people who I don't want to be associated with -- and I'm OK with them telling their friends I wouldn't serve them. Just because I run a business shouldn't mean I have to be a slave to anyone with a dollar. Should Ford have to make a car for people who are blind? Should NASA have to retrofit the ISS with wheelchair ramps? I mean... there is a line somewhere, and I think it's fine to leave it with the business owner -- they generally aren't going to do anything that hurts their business.

tyingq 7y ago

US airline websites have had to be accessible for quite a while now via a DOT directive. I agree some thought needs to be put into a rollout, but we do have some precedent.

DanBC 7y ago

Most law draws a distinction between something purely personal, and something done commercially.

Misdicorl 7y ago
My point is that the line gets blurry on the internet really fast
- beatgammit 7y ago
  Precisely. What if I decide to put ads on my personal blog because I've noticed that I have enough readers to make that make sense? Am I now a business? What if I decide to sell a plush design I made because people kept asking about it? Let's say that it becomes so popular that I choose to make a business out of it, at which point do I need to start making my website "accessible"? Is it when I file for a business license, or when I reach some amount in sales? Personally, I don't understand the "accessibility as a right" crowd. Yes I want the web to be accessible to people with disabilities, but I don't think it makes sense to force people to cater to any particular group. Perhaps it makes sense as a requirement for publicly listed companies, and absolutely for any government entity or entities that receive government funding, but not for the average person or small business owner, and the internet blurs the line between individual and company.

liability 7y ago

Nobody has made me install a ramp to my front door, because I don't operate a business open to the public out of my home. So I'm not too concerned. (That said, I would sooner make my blog accessible to the vision impaired than make my home wheelchair friendly. Web accessibility is trivial unless you go out of your way to do fancy shit with style sheets and JavaScript, or unless you do dumb shit like put important text in images with no alt-text (just... why??))

worldofmatthew 7y ago
The biggest issue are screen readers which often work awfully with modern web standards. On top of most web designers being unable to test with them just to high cost.
- floren 7y ago
  I don't know that the problem lies with modern web standards so much as modern web practices. I don't think there's anything in the HTML5 standard that makes screen readers shit the bed, but pervasive Javascript certainly can.
  - worldofmatthew 7y ago
    Many accessibility tools shit the bed on CSS.
Misdicorl 7y ago
But the line between 'the business' and personal is often blurry. Must Elon Musk's tweets satisfy these requirements? What about a senior software engineer's blog which goes into some detail on a Google cloud outage?
- Misdicorl 7y ago
  To really drive the point home- what if both the engineer and Google earn money from the blog because it runs AdWords?

buro9 7y ago

if company and (company.headcount > x or company.revenue > y) then must_support_all_people end

dbg31415 7y ago
This is the best way to put it. But... What if they are 95% headcount and want to do 80% compliance? It just gets fuzzy fast. And think of Amazon Prime... I love that I can order something and it comes the same day, or next day. That same level of service isn't offered in Sydney, or Rural North Dakota... would we require that of Amazon? Seems crazy. So the extrapolated argument there is, "You can order a pizza on the phone, why do you need the app?" Likely some app-focused discount code the potential customer is trying to invoke. Seems like a lot of hassle for $2 off the pizza. Or, again, Rural North Dakota, where you can't get a fast internet connection... is Netflix required to serve that area? I mean... can't we say, "We're only going to service people with a fast connection, modern OS, and who are willing to install our DRM plugins?" I think it's OK for businesses not to treat everyone exactly the same is all I'm getting at. And, as a small business owner, I want to be able to deny my services to people who I don't want to be associated with -- and I'm OK with them telling their friends I wouldn't serve them. Just because I run a business shouldn't mean I have to be a slave to anyone with a dollar. Should Ford have to make a car for people who are blind? Should NASA have to retrofit the ISS with wheelchair ramps? I mean... there is a line somewhere, and I think it's fine to leave it with the business owner -- they generally aren't going to do anything that hurts their business.