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As a Dutchman I am ashamed how much 'solidarity' there really is in the 'union'. Sure, they had their books cooked by Goldman Sachs to get in, but everybody kn

As a Dutchman I am ashamed how much 'solidarity' there really is in the 'union'. Sure, they had their books cooked by Goldman Sachs to get in, but everybody knew this. The austerity forced upon the Greeks since the €-crisis is inhumane.

spapas82 7y ago
I'm greek and in my opinion this catastrophy doesn't actually have anything to do with the austerity. I'd like to express some personal opinions (please other greek people don't judge or make it polical this is just the opinion I've gathered by watching the news all this time): I believe that the catastrophy it's a result of three things (please forgive my english I hope everything will make sense): - The Weather. From what I've head the fire had spread in very little time; it was something unprecedented. I don't know if the fires had started by arson but definitely the main responsible party for this destruction was the wind. - The organization of the civil protection organizations (police, fire department, etc). Unfortunately the civil protection had not properly handled this. They were more or less caught with their pants down; they did not understand how big the fire was and were giving wrong directions to the citizens. Also, there was (and I don't think that there is now) no real plan to handle such situations; every is left to luck. This is more or less how everything in Greece works; sloppy and without a real plan; most people want to do their service, not have any responsibilities and go home. Very few people in key areas have a real plan or want to implement something bigger than day to day work. - The residential situation in these areas. These areas are more or less a forest near the sea. During the previous years, when I passed with my card I saw some houses in these areas surrounded by forrest. Also there were various other strange things like homes having "private" access to the beach so people running from the fire were trapped and unable to run to the sea(!) Most of these houses did not have a permit to be built there but because of how the Greek government works (I mean in the previous 30+ years) they were able to stay their without any problems. They even had electric power, telephone etc even though they shouldnt since they had built in the forrest. Such things unfortunately exist in other places in Greece but nobody seems to care. This is more or less related to the sloppy nature of greeks and the governments here for like 40+ years. Please notice that even if everythign worked perfect in the civil protection and even if there were no houses in these forrests, even then I'm not sure that the catastrophy could be averted. We've seen similar situation in much better organized countries than Greece. So there would still be much destruction (and probably dead people) but I think not at this scale. Update: sorry my last sentence had the opposite meaning of what I wanted to say; it's been corrected now.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- GoetheThrowaway 7y ago
  My wife is Greek, I’m Northern European and have lived in Greece for more than 10 years (on and off). This sounds similar to what I have observed except in my view it’s even worse. Greece is a massively corrupt country, on all levels, starting from government/politics and culminating all the way down to day-to-day life. The Greeks have a tendency to blame the politicians for everything that goes wrong but it’s really the corrupt, disintegrating culture - that they are happy to espouse - that’s most to blame. After all, who is voting these corrupt politicians into power year after year? Terms like “the common good”, “strategic thinking”, “planning for the future” , “unity” are not only completely meaningless to the average Greek but actively frowned upon if not ridiculed. Populism holds sway and people are happy to vote for whatever powermonger ends up promising the most in terms of personal gain. Add to that a vast, monstrously centralized civil sector (the bureaucracy and time wasting here is of epic proportions) and one can quickly see why the country is in shambles. Of all the European countries I’ve lived in, I’d say that Italy is the most similar, corruption-wise. Something funny: Greece is, I think, the only country in the EU where the “Communist Party” (a direct appendage of the Stalinist era with ties to CCCP) has significant power and is voted into parliament every year. The previous prime minister Tsipras was in fact an offshoot of these hardened communists. Nevertheless, the country itself, outside the big cities, is beautiful beyond belief. It’s just too bad that the culture is so backwards with no sign of things changing for the better.
  - Fishysoup 7y ago
    Greek here, agree with pretty much everything you said. Just wanted to point out that everyone running for public office is corrupt so that doesn't really give you any choices. Everyone who can leave the country does so. The people staying behind are those too poor to leave, and those profiting from the crisis (like those dentists that make 100 euro per appointment, have >20 appointments a day, and declare an annual income of 12000 euro a year).
    - 7y ago
craftoman 7y ago
I'm from Greece and I'm the only person who slightly agrees with you here. Half of Greeks are crooks and everyone's scamming everyone. I wish one day, I start a new life in a decent European country cause Greece is a shithole. I'm watching Greek news almost half an hour (sometimes more) for many years and have a big social circle were we share everyday stories. Everything is a mess everywhere, not only in the public sector but even the private has some major problems too. Greece has lost the game years now but you must NEVER ever forget one thing: "GREECE IS ONE OF EUROPE'S BEST COSTUMER". Greeks buy European cars, electronics, industrial equipment, military equipment, agricultural tools, everything comes from Europe but one day European fellows decided to blame the Greeks for cooking the books just to get away with the murder. Everyone knew what was going on like they did with the Brexit years and months before it happened. Politics are way more complicated than you think my friend.
netsharc 7y ago
As well as upon Spain.. and Italy is languishing. You should read Yanis Varoufakis' book "Adults in the Room". The Troika (Eurogroup, IMF, ECB) basically bailed out German banks by funneling the money through Greece, the austerity was a side effect of the German finance minister not understanding the difference between micro- and macroeconomics... And people wonder why everyone is turning to right wing parties (hint: it's desperation of just the same politics making their lives continually miserable)... Merkel's legacy will probably be turning Europe more Nazi than Hitler. Also, Ursula von der Leyen? Epic facepalm...
- clydethefrog 7y ago
  Fun fact: Dijsselbloem is now in the running to become head of the IMF if you believe Dutch rumours.
- YeGoblynQueenne 7y ago
  >> And people wonder why everyone is turning to right wing parties (hint: it's desperation of just the same politics making their lives continually miserable)... Well, if one is not a fascist, one does not vote for fasists. Besides, how is Xrysi Avgi, or Salvini, Orban, etc, making peoples lives any better? No, the reason for the rise of _fascism_ (and it's fascism, not "populism") is that people have forgotten the atrocities and the devastation of the second world war, that were the inevitable result the last time fascism rose in Europe. And unless the people of Europe remember what that icky grey goo inside their heads is for, we will get there again, hard as it may seem to believe right now.

spapas82 7y ago

I'm greek and in my opinion this catastrophy doesn't actually have anything to do with the austerity. I'd like to express some personal opinions (please other greek people don't judge or make it polical this is just the opinion I've gathered by watching the news all this time): I believe that the catastrophy it's a result of three things (please forgive my english I hope everything will make sense): - The Weather. From what I've head the fire had spread in very little time; it was something unprecedented. I don't know if the fires had started by arson but definitely the main responsible party for this destruction was the wind. - The organization of the civil protection organizations (police, fire department, etc). Unfortunately the civil protection had not properly handled this. They were more or less caught with their pants down; they did not understand how big the fire was and were giving wrong directions to the citizens. Also, there was (and I don't think that there is now) no real plan to handle such situations; every is left to luck. This is more or less how everything in Greece works; sloppy and without a real plan; most people want to do their service, not have any responsibilities and go home. Very few people in key areas have a real plan or want to implement something bigger than day to day work. - The residential situation in these areas. These areas are more or less a forest near the sea. During the previous years, when I passed with my card I saw some houses in these areas surrounded by forrest. Also there were various other strange things like homes having "private" access to the beach so people running from the fire were trapped and unable to run to the sea(!) Most of these houses did not have a permit to be built there but because of how the Greek government works (I mean in the previous 30+ years) they were able to stay their without any problems. They even had electric power, telephone etc even though they shouldnt since they had built in the forrest. Such things unfortunately exist in other places in Greece but nobody seems to care. This is more or less related to the sloppy nature of greeks and the governments here for like 40+ years. Please notice that even if everythign worked perfect in the civil protection and even if there were no houses in these forrests, even then I'm not sure that the catastrophy could be averted. We've seen similar situation in much better organized countries than Greece. So there would still be much destruction (and probably dead people) but I think not at this scale. Update: sorry my last sentence had the opposite meaning of what I wanted to say; it's been corrected now.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
GoetheThrowaway 7y ago
My wife is Greek, I’m Northern European and have lived in Greece for more than 10 years (on and off). This sounds similar to what I have observed except in my view it’s even worse. Greece is a massively corrupt country, on all levels, starting from government/politics and culminating all the way down to day-to-day life. The Greeks have a tendency to blame the politicians for everything that goes wrong but it’s really the corrupt, disintegrating culture - that they are happy to espouse - that’s most to blame. After all, who is voting these corrupt politicians into power year after year? Terms like “the common good”, “strategic thinking”, “planning for the future” , “unity” are not only completely meaningless to the average Greek but actively frowned upon if not ridiculed. Populism holds sway and people are happy to vote for whatever powermonger ends up promising the most in terms of personal gain. Add to that a vast, monstrously centralized civil sector (the bureaucracy and time wasting here is of epic proportions) and one can quickly see why the country is in shambles. Of all the European countries I’ve lived in, I’d say that Italy is the most similar, corruption-wise. Something funny: Greece is, I think, the only country in the EU where the “Communist Party” (a direct appendage of the Stalinist era with ties to CCCP) has significant power and is voted into parliament every year. The previous prime minister Tsipras was in fact an offshoot of these hardened communists. Nevertheless, the country itself, outside the big cities, is beautiful beyond belief. It’s just too bad that the culture is so backwards with no sign of things changing for the better.
- Fishysoup 7y ago
  Greek here, agree with pretty much everything you said. Just wanted to point out that everyone running for public office is corrupt so that doesn't really give you any choices. Everyone who can leave the country does so. The people staying behind are those too poor to leave, and those profiting from the crisis (like those dentists that make 100 euro per appointment, have >20 appointments a day, and declare an annual income of 12000 euro a year).
  - 7y ago

craftoman 7y ago

I'm from Greece and I'm the only person who slightly agrees with you here. Half of Greeks are crooks and everyone's scamming everyone. I wish one day, I start a new life in a decent European country cause Greece is a shithole. I'm watching Greek news almost half an hour (sometimes more) for many years and have a big social circle were we share everyday stories. Everything is a mess everywhere, not only in the public sector but even the private has some major problems too. Greece has lost the game years now but you must NEVER ever forget one thing: "GREECE IS ONE OF EUROPE'S BEST COSTUMER". Greeks buy European cars, electronics, industrial equipment, military equipment, agricultural tools, everything comes from Europe but one day European fellows decided to blame the Greeks for cooking the books just to get away with the murder. Everyone knew what was going on like they did with the Brexit years and months before it happened. Politics are way more complicated than you think my friend.

netsharc 7y ago

As well as upon Spain.. and Italy is languishing. You should read Yanis Varoufakis' book "Adults in the Room". The Troika (Eurogroup, IMF, ECB) basically bailed out German banks by funneling the money through Greece, the austerity was a side effect of the German finance minister not understanding the difference between micro- and macroeconomics... And people wonder why everyone is turning to right wing parties (hint: it's desperation of just the same politics making their lives continually miserable)... Merkel's legacy will probably be turning Europe more Nazi than Hitler. Also, Ursula von der Leyen? Epic facepalm...

clydethefrog 7y ago
Fun fact: Dijsselbloem is now in the running to become head of the IMF if you believe Dutch rumours.
YeGoblynQueenne 7y ago
>> And people wonder why everyone is turning to right wing parties (hint: it's desperation of just the same politics making their lives continually miserable)... Well, if one is not a fascist, one does not vote for fasists. Besides, how is Xrysi Avgi, or Salvini, Orban, etc, making peoples lives any better? No, the reason for the rise of _fascism_ (and it's fascism, not "populism") is that people have forgotten the atrocities and the devastation of the second world war, that were the inevitable result the last time fascism rose in Europe. And unless the people of Europe remember what that icky grey goo inside their heads is for, we will get there again, hard as it may seem to believe right now.