4 ms·

This has got me thinking about MW and the speed of light .... a quantum event occurs here and the universes split, that split propagates out at the speed of lig

This has got me thinking about MW and the speed of light .... a quantum event occurs here and the universes split, that split propagates out at the speed of light ... at roughly the 'same' time a quantum event happens at Alpha Centuri ... the universe splits there and that change propagates out at the speed of light .... 2 years later half way in between the splitting universes meet - what does that mean?

xdarnold 7y ago
"Splitting" does not propagate, or happen with any locality - it's the wave function of the entire universe doing the splitting, so there's nowhere for it to propagate!
- n4r9 7y ago
  It makes sense to talk about the split propagating. A subsystem which is spatially located at a distance from the splitting event will not immediately become involved in the superposition, but may do once information about the event has traveled.
  - xdarnold 7y ago
    When we talk about MWI as the asker is trying to more fully understand, we are explicitly not talking about subsystems. There's just the one big evolving state (of the universe).
    - n4r9 7y ago
      That's true, but that global state of the universe can be written in terms of its reduced states on spatial subsystems. From this perspective we can talk meaningfully about propagating superpositions. For example, take a toy example in one dimension with three spatial subsystems A, B and C representing disjoint intervals arranged in order. Immediately after a splitting event the combined wavefunction over all subsytems might be: (psi_1 + psi_2)_A x phi_b x rho_C (ignoring normalisation for convenience) then after a certain amount of time it becomes (psi_1 x phi_1 + psi_2 x phi_2)_AB x rho_C and then eventually (psi_1 x phi_1 x rho_1 + psi_2 x phi_2 x rho_2)_ABC . Now, all of that is certainly happening within the realm of some joint superstate, but it still makes sense to talk about how fast the split propagates, surely?
      - xdarnold 7y ago
        All depends on the context. Does it make sense to talk about propagating splitting in this context? Surely no - for three reasons: 1. You're describing a time evolution _of the subsystems_, which isn't really a thing in the MWI. A many-worlder would say, instead, that the Universe has split a bunch more in the interim. He would point to the time evolution of the state of the Universe, and perhaps there have a discussion about how the inseparability of particular subsystems has propagated over time. Put differently, the many-worlder might say the correlations of these particular relative states with one another propagated over time. What you've done, Everett would call characterizing branches of the universal state in a space-like locality. 2. Split != superposition. Frequently, splitting in MWI is identified with decoherence, so in that sense there is a self-consistent way to describe local splitting - but then you'd really mean, when you referred to the splitting of "an object" or "a system", that Universal splitting had occurred in such a way as to cause the object to exist in some particular multiple new branches. 3. None of this line of discussion helps the parent gain an understanding of how MWI is importantly different from (and the same as) other interpretations of QM. It's far too shallow to amount to any real expert insight and yet too technical to amount to any real layperson insight. What can a discussion on propagating splitting illuminate here? It seems to me that it is a less than useful idea for the parent and readers like him/her, and many-worlds is more clearly understood without it.
        n4r9 7y ago
        > You're describing a time evolution _of the subsystems_ In my head I'm thinking about the time evolution of the global state, but examining the reduced state over certain subsystems at specific points in time. > Split != superposition. Frequently, splitting in MWI is identified with decoherence Decoherence is a superposition effect, is it not? Entanglement with the environment, i.e. a superposition of system-environment states. > then you'd really mean, when you referred to the splitting of "an object" or "a system", that Universal splitting had occurred in such a way as to cause the object to exist in some particular multiple new branches Yes, this is what I mean. > What can a discussion on propagating splitting illuminate here? Tbh I think it's unlikely that the parent is still following but I'm continuing for the selfish purpose of trying to better understand your point. That said, I believe that considering my toy example of a global quantum state in one dimension would illuminate their question about superpositions propagating from here and alpha centauri and meeting in the middle.
jeremyjh 7y ago
It all adds up to normal.

xdarnold 7y ago

"Splitting" does not propagate, or happen with any locality - it's the wave function of the entire universe doing the splitting, so there's nowhere for it to propagate!

n4r9 7y ago
It makes sense to talk about the split propagating. A subsystem which is spatially located at a distance from the splitting event will not immediately become involved in the superposition, but may do once information about the event has traveled.
- xdarnold 7y ago
  When we talk about MWI as the asker is trying to more fully understand, we are explicitly not talking about subsystems. There's just the one big evolving state (of the universe).
  - n4r9 7y ago
    That's true, but that global state of the universe can be written in terms of its reduced states on spatial subsystems. From this perspective we can talk meaningfully about propagating superpositions. For example, take a toy example in one dimension with three spatial subsystems A, B and C representing disjoint intervals arranged in order. Immediately after a splitting event the combined wavefunction over all subsytems might be: (psi_1 + psi_2)_A x phi_b x rho_C (ignoring normalisation for convenience) then after a certain amount of time it becomes (psi_1 x phi_1 + psi_2 x phi_2)_AB x rho_C and then eventually (psi_1 x phi_1 x rho_1 + psi_2 x phi_2 x rho_2)_ABC . Now, all of that is certainly happening within the realm of some joint superstate, but it still makes sense to talk about how fast the split propagates, surely?
    - xdarnold 7y ago
      All depends on the context. Does it make sense to talk about propagating splitting in this context? Surely no - for three reasons: 1. You're describing a time evolution _of the subsystems_, which isn't really a thing in the MWI. A many-worlder would say, instead, that the Universe has split a bunch more in the interim. He would point to the time evolution of the state of the Universe, and perhaps there have a discussion about how the inseparability of particular subsystems has propagated over time. Put differently, the many-worlder might say the correlations of these particular relative states with one another propagated over time. What you've done, Everett would call characterizing branches of the universal state in a space-like locality. 2. Split != superposition. Frequently, splitting in MWI is identified with decoherence, so in that sense there is a self-consistent way to describe local splitting - but then you'd really mean, when you referred to the splitting of "an object" or "a system", that Universal splitting had occurred in such a way as to cause the object to exist in some particular multiple new branches. 3. None of this line of discussion helps the parent gain an understanding of how MWI is importantly different from (and the same as) other interpretations of QM. It's far too shallow to amount to any real expert insight and yet too technical to amount to any real layperson insight. What can a discussion on propagating splitting illuminate here? It seems to me that it is a less than useful idea for the parent and readers like him/her, and many-worlds is more clearly understood without it.
      - n4r9 7y ago
        > You're describing a time evolution _of the subsystems_ In my head I'm thinking about the time evolution of the global state, but examining the reduced state over certain subsystems at specific points in time. > Split != superposition. Frequently, splitting in MWI is identified with decoherence Decoherence is a superposition effect, is it not? Entanglement with the environment, i.e. a superposition of system-environment states. > then you'd really mean, when you referred to the splitting of "an object" or "a system", that Universal splitting had occurred in such a way as to cause the object to exist in some particular multiple new branches Yes, this is what I mean. > What can a discussion on propagating splitting illuminate here? Tbh I think it's unlikely that the parent is still following but I'm continuing for the selfish purpose of trying to better understand your point. That said, I believe that considering my toy example of a global quantum state in one dimension would illuminate their question about superpositions propagating from here and alpha centauri and meeting in the middle.

jeremyjh 7y ago

It all adds up to normal.