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Quite amazingly neither of these pages work without JS. How difficult is it to make a page saying 'not found' using static HTML, perhaps with a GIF if you want

Quite amazingly neither of these pages work without JS. How difficult is it to make a page saying 'not found' using static HTML, perhaps with a GIF if you want minor animation. I mean, how difficult is it to not use tech that you don't need? Edit: loved the FT 404 though

dangrossman 7y ago
You need JavaScript to use the web in 2019. It has nothing to do with difficulty. You also need an ID to get into the boarding area of an airport and you can't smoke in restaurants. It's never going to be 1995 again. It's time to stop complaining about this.
- klez 7y ago
  Those are not remotely the same. A web page can function without JS. It's not something you need to display some text and some images. And it's not harmful to others. Smoking in a closed space is. Also, I can't believe every time this refrain pops up we need to be reminded that js not loading is not only a problem for those deactivating it explicitly but also in those cases when it didn't load for any number of reasons (like a bad connection). You're doing your visitors a disservice if you need js to load static text and pictures.
  - Avamander 7y ago
    A web page can function without JS, but a lot of things seriously aren't doable with just HTML5, no matter how hard you try.
    - progval 7y ago
      It depends on where you draw the line between what you call a webpage vs a webapp. If a webpage is something with just text, images, and non-interactive forms (and audio and video to a lesser extent), then it's perfectly possible.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - vbezhenar 7y ago
      Nobody complains that Google Maps are using JS. People are complaining that developers abusing JS just to show simple page or video which is perfectly doable with HTML 5.
      - Avamander 7y ago
        Showing a simple video isn't simple without JS, it's just clunky in all aspects.
        kbenson 7y ago
        I think you're mistaking simple for something else. Simple can easily be clunky. I would even say simple is often clunky. Making something elegant, and full of features, and pretty is often complex.
        Avamander 7y ago
        It's not simple even for the developer to use the video tag if you want a thing that works.
        vbezhenar 7y ago
        It's very simple: just use <video> tag.
  - briandear 7y ago
    Just a curiosity, but has anyone ever become addicted to secondhand smoke?
    - Retra 7y ago
      https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/moderate-levels-secondhand-smoke-deliver-nicotine-brain https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/moderate-level...
- tempguy9999 7y ago
  >You need JavaScript to use the web in 2019 No you don't. Nor should you ever if the page doesn't need it. Having your code running on my machine always was and always will be a security risk. If you don't understand that you shouldn't be in that job. > You also need an ID to get into the boarding area of an airport and you can't smoke in restaurants Respectively, that's because a boarding area is not a public area, and relevance of smoking to this? > It's time to stop complaining about this No, it's time web devs understood the implications of their job, and the risk they put their users at if done improperly. An axiom of technology design: Simplicity. If you don't need X, don't use it. Edit: so you're the "Founder of Improvely: https://www.improvely.com" https://www.improvely.com" which "Track, Test and Optimize Your Online Marketing". That explains something. No, no, no, you're not going to track me. I am not your data point.
  - Jonnax 7y ago
    It's your right to choose to browse the internet without JavaScript enabled. If a website doesn't run then it's upto you to either accept that you won't see their content or enable JS. People who complain about sites not working without JS in comment sections are silly. Nobody is going to be convinced to change.
    - tempguy9999 7y ago
      You're correct (upvoted for that), it's my right and I decided long ago. I'm ok paying the price, also reaping the rewards of very fast page loading, zero tracking, and shutting off a huge vector for malware. But others with less tech knowledge (which is 97% of the population I guess) are not in a position to make the choice and have to trust. Some people abuse that trust for profit. Other web devs are well-intentioned but clueless about the risks they put on the users. Also I disable JS long ago because I knew that there would be unknown unknows, and bingo: (https://react-etc.net/entry/exploiting-speculative-execution-meltdown-spectre-via-javascript https://react-etc.net/entry/exploiting-speculative-execution...) "Exploiting Speculative Execution (Meltdown/Spectre) via JavaScript" It's a matter of trust; trust is earned; the industry as a whole hasn't earned it. Further reading: Remember that there is no code faster than no code. -- Taligent's Guide to Designing Programs Simple things should be simple and complex things should be possible. -- Alan Kay Perfection (in design) is achieved not when there is nothing more to add, but rather when there is nothing more to take away. -- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry [...]But there is one quality that cannot be purchased in this way---and that is reliability. The price of reliability is the pursuit of the utmost simplicity. It is a price which the very rich find most hard to pay. -- C.A.R. Hoare, "The Emperor's Old Clothes", Turing Award Lecture (1980) Increasingly, people seem to misinterpret complexity as sophistication, which is baffling --- the incomprehensible should cause suspicion rather than admiration. Possibly this trend results from a mistaken belief that using a somewhat mysterious device confers an aura of power on the user. -- Niklaus Wirth The difference between a good and a poor architect is that the poor architect succumbs to every temptation and the good one resists it. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein Beauty is more important in computing than anywhere else in technology because software is so complicated. Beauty is the ultimate defense against complexity. -- David Gelernter, "Machine Beauty", Basic Books (1998) Fools ignore complexity; pragmatists suffer it; experts avoid it; geniuses remove it. -- Alan Perlis The cheapest, fastest, and most reliable components of a computer system are those that aren't there. -- Graham Bell [...]Simplicity and elegance are unpopular because they require hard work and discipline to achieve and education to be appreciated. -- Edsger W. Dijkstra Controlling complexity is the essence of computer programming. -- Brian Kernighan Complexity is a sign of technical immaturity. Simplicity of use is the real sign of a well design product whether it is an ATM or a Patriot missile. -- Daniel T. Ling There's an old story about the person who wished his computer were as easy to use as his telephone. That wish has come true, since I no longer know how to use my telephone. -- Bjarne Stroustrup The most likely way for the world to be destroyed, most experts agree, is by accident. That's where we come in; we're computer professionals. We cause accidents. -- Nathaniel S. Borenstein
- lofikrom 7y ago
  Lots of ad and script blockers block JS nowadays, you can definitely go without it. For my browsing habits at least, I find I can disable JS globally and selectively unblock it when I come across a site that does require JS. It's doable, and a tad bit safer too.
benj111 7y ago
I'm surprised by the downvotes for this. There are downsides to using Javascript for everything, so it isn't a free lunch. Move fast and break things is increasingly less defensible for what is a mature technology that the world relies on. And Moores Law is a thing of the past, it isn't really tenable to just take the view that hardware will 'fix' your performance problems. Then there are the security and accessibility considerations. I suppose Javascript is the single use plastic of the digital world. In its place there aren't really any good alternatives, that doesn't mean you should use it everywhere.
- jsmeaton 7y ago
  It’s being downvoted because it’s a boring tired comment that adds nothing new. These discussions are had in nearly every thread.
  - benj111 7y ago
    I wouldn't say every thread at all, but maybe we read different kinds of submissions. Plus many things are repeated ad infinituum. I can guarantee any discussion on wind power will have someone saying we should be going nuclear. Every discussion on electric cars will devolve to a discussion on Elon Musks personality, every discussion on facebook will lead to a mention on privacy. People have opinions, they've come here to express them, most of it will retread old ground, if there was nothing new to add, 90% of submissions could just be linked to the original discussion, that isnt what happens, (although old threads are generally linked to) so it seems reasonable if we're going to re-have all the other discussions, to re-have this discussion. And finally, it seems to be the rule that to be downvoted, an opinion has to be wrong and/or offensive. So if there is a downvoted comment that seems to be neither I'll then take the time to find out if I was wrong, so for me, downvoting comments that you just don't want to read, just adds noise. I'll admit that that's personal to me, and its entirely likely that others see downvotes differently, that is an annoying consequence of votes being such blunt instruments.
  - tempguy9999 7y ago
    This sidesteps the truth of my point. Rebut me with arguments, not petulant downvotes. If you have no arguments, maybe, just maybe, you're wrong.
dang 7y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20490102 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20490102.
- tempguy9999 7y ago
  Forgive me, I don't recall reading about this act in your guidelines - what does detaching it mean? I can still see it in the original thread even when not logged in. Also, for my own record, do you consider this discussion inappropriate to the subject of natty 404 pages? Asking as I kicked it off.
  - dang 7y ago
    Detaching just means it becomes a top level comment instead of a reply to its original parent. The main reason we do that is when a subthread is off topic. Especially if it's a generic tangent like JS vs. no-JS, which gets repeated often.

dangrossman 7y ago

You need JavaScript to use the web in 2019. It has nothing to do with difficulty. You also need an ID to get into the boarding area of an airport and you can't smoke in restaurants. It's never going to be 1995 again. It's time to stop complaining about this.

klez 7y ago
Those are not remotely the same. A web page can function without JS. It's not something you need to display some text and some images. And it's not harmful to others. Smoking in a closed space is. Also, I can't believe every time this refrain pops up we need to be reminded that js not loading is not only a problem for those deactivating it explicitly but also in those cases when it didn't load for any number of reasons (like a bad connection). You're doing your visitors a disservice if you need js to load static text and pictures.
- Avamander 7y ago
  A web page can function without JS, but a lot of things seriously aren't doable with just HTML5, no matter how hard you try.
  - progval 7y ago
    It depends on where you draw the line between what you call a webpage vs a webapp. If a webpage is something with just text, images, and non-interactive forms (and audio and video to a lesser extent), then it's perfectly possible.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - vbezhenar 7y ago
    Nobody complains that Google Maps are using JS. People are complaining that developers abusing JS just to show simple page or video which is perfectly doable with HTML 5.
    - Avamander 7y ago
      Showing a simple video isn't simple without JS, it's just clunky in all aspects.
      - kbenson 7y ago
        I think you're mistaking simple for something else. Simple can easily be clunky. I would even say simple is often clunky. Making something elegant, and full of features, and pretty is often complex.
        Avamander 7y ago
        It's not simple even for the developer to use the video tag if you want a thing that works.
      - vbezhenar 7y ago
        It's very simple: just use <video> tag.
- briandear 7y ago
  Just a curiosity, but has anyone ever become addicted to secondhand smoke?
  - Retra 7y ago
    https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/moderate-levels-secondhand-smoke-deliver-nicotine-brain https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/moderate-level...
tempguy9999 7y ago
>You need JavaScript to use the web in 2019 No you don't. Nor should you ever if the page doesn't need it. Having your code running on my machine always was and always will be a security risk. If you don't understand that you shouldn't be in that job. > You also need an ID to get into the boarding area of an airport and you can't smoke in restaurants Respectively, that's because a boarding area is not a public area, and relevance of smoking to this? > It's time to stop complaining about this No, it's time web devs understood the implications of their job, and the risk they put their users at if done improperly. An axiom of technology design: Simplicity. If you don't need X, don't use it. Edit: so you're the "Founder of Improvely: https://www.improvely.com" https://www.improvely.com" which "Track, Test and Optimize Your Online Marketing". That explains something. No, no, no, you're not going to track me. I am not your data point.
- Jonnax 7y ago
  It's your right to choose to browse the internet without JavaScript enabled. If a website doesn't run then it's upto you to either accept that you won't see their content or enable JS. People who complain about sites not working without JS in comment sections are silly. Nobody is going to be convinced to change.
  - tempguy9999 7y ago
    You're correct (upvoted for that), it's my right and I decided long ago. I'm ok paying the price, also reaping the rewards of very fast page loading, zero tracking, and shutting off a huge vector for malware. But others with less tech knowledge (which is 97% of the population I guess) are not in a position to make the choice and have to trust. Some people abuse that trust for profit. Other web devs are well-intentioned but clueless about the risks they put on the users. Also I disable JS long ago because I knew that there would be unknown unknows, and bingo: (https://react-etc.net/entry/exploiting-speculative-execution-meltdown-spectre-via-javascript https://react-etc.net/entry/exploiting-speculative-execution...) "Exploiting Speculative Execution (Meltdown/Spectre) via JavaScript" It's a matter of trust; trust is earned; the industry as a whole hasn't earned it. Further reading: Remember that there is no code faster than no code. -- Taligent's Guide to Designing Programs Simple things should be simple and complex things should be possible. -- Alan Kay Perfection (in design) is achieved not when there is nothing more to add, but rather when there is nothing more to take away. -- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry [...]But there is one quality that cannot be purchased in this way---and that is reliability. The price of reliability is the pursuit of the utmost simplicity. It is a price which the very rich find most hard to pay. -- C.A.R. Hoare, "The Emperor's Old Clothes", Turing Award Lecture (1980) Increasingly, people seem to misinterpret complexity as sophistication, which is baffling --- the incomprehensible should cause suspicion rather than admiration. Possibly this trend results from a mistaken belief that using a somewhat mysterious device confers an aura of power on the user. -- Niklaus Wirth The difference between a good and a poor architect is that the poor architect succumbs to every temptation and the good one resists it. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein Beauty is more important in computing than anywhere else in technology because software is so complicated. Beauty is the ultimate defense against complexity. -- David Gelernter, "Machine Beauty", Basic Books (1998) Fools ignore complexity; pragmatists suffer it; experts avoid it; geniuses remove it. -- Alan Perlis The cheapest, fastest, and most reliable components of a computer system are those that aren't there. -- Graham Bell [...]Simplicity and elegance are unpopular because they require hard work and discipline to achieve and education to be appreciated. -- Edsger W. Dijkstra Controlling complexity is the essence of computer programming. -- Brian Kernighan Complexity is a sign of technical immaturity. Simplicity of use is the real sign of a well design product whether it is an ATM or a Patriot missile. -- Daniel T. Ling There's an old story about the person who wished his computer were as easy to use as his telephone. That wish has come true, since I no longer know how to use my telephone. -- Bjarne Stroustrup The most likely way for the world to be destroyed, most experts agree, is by accident. That's where we come in; we're computer professionals. We cause accidents. -- Nathaniel S. Borenstein
lofikrom 7y ago
Lots of ad and script blockers block JS nowadays, you can definitely go without it. For my browsing habits at least, I find I can disable JS globally and selectively unblock it when I come across a site that does require JS. It's doable, and a tad bit safer too.

benj111 7y ago

I'm surprised by the downvotes for this. There are downsides to using Javascript for everything, so it isn't a free lunch. Move fast and break things is increasingly less defensible for what is a mature technology that the world relies on. And Moores Law is a thing of the past, it isn't really tenable to just take the view that hardware will 'fix' your performance problems. Then there are the security and accessibility considerations. I suppose Javascript is the single use plastic of the digital world. In its place there aren't really any good alternatives, that doesn't mean you should use it everywhere.

jsmeaton 7y ago
It’s being downvoted because it’s a boring tired comment that adds nothing new. These discussions are had in nearly every thread.
- benj111 7y ago
  I wouldn't say every thread at all, but maybe we read different kinds of submissions. Plus many things are repeated ad infinituum. I can guarantee any discussion on wind power will have someone saying we should be going nuclear. Every discussion on electric cars will devolve to a discussion on Elon Musks personality, every discussion on facebook will lead to a mention on privacy. People have opinions, they've come here to express them, most of it will retread old ground, if there was nothing new to add, 90% of submissions could just be linked to the original discussion, that isnt what happens, (although old threads are generally linked to) so it seems reasonable if we're going to re-have all the other discussions, to re-have this discussion. And finally, it seems to be the rule that to be downvoted, an opinion has to be wrong and/or offensive. So if there is a downvoted comment that seems to be neither I'll then take the time to find out if I was wrong, so for me, downvoting comments that you just don't want to read, just adds noise. I'll admit that that's personal to me, and its entirely likely that others see downvotes differently, that is an annoying consequence of votes being such blunt instruments.
- tempguy9999 7y ago
  This sidesteps the truth of my point. Rebut me with arguments, not petulant downvotes. If you have no arguments, maybe, just maybe, you're wrong.

dang 7y ago

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20490102 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20490102.

tempguy9999 7y ago
Forgive me, I don't recall reading about this act in your guidelines - what does detaching it mean? I can still see it in the original thread even when not logged in. Also, for my own record, do you consider this discussion inappropriate to the subject of natty 404 pages? Asking as I kicked it off.
- dang 7y ago
  Detaching just means it becomes a top level comment instead of a reply to its original parent. The main reason we do that is when a subthread is off topic. Especially if it's a generic tangent like JS vs. no-JS, which gets repeated often.