12 ms·

Carthago delenda est

64 points by kwikiel 7y ago

lspears 7y ago
If you haven't checked out the hardcore history podcasts I recommend doing so. The punic war episodes are particularly good.
- ufo 7y ago
  And while we are in the topic of podcasts, "The History of Rome" by Mike Duncan is amazing.
  - positr0n 7y ago
    Agreed. His second podcast series, "Revolutions", is excellent as well. I have to admit I struggled a little through the English revolution. The American revolution was much more interesting. Then the French revolution was absolutely fascinating.
    - Nightshaxx 7y ago
      I listened to the French revolution twice, it was that good.
    - evgen 7y ago
      They are all very good. Even with a decent background in history, as an American, I tended to think of the 1840s in terms of the lead up to the US Civil War and ignored/forgot most of what was happening in Europe at the time. The season he did around this period was a great reminder of all of the seeds of change and destruction for future generations that were sown in this decade.
- macspoofing 7y ago
  "The History of Rome" podcast is quite good as well.
- ekianjo 7y ago
  Let me also chime in a recommendation for Historia Civilis' podcast, very very good about the Roman era.
neferbast 7y ago
Especially if Dido back-stabs you, and she always does. Jokes aside, the youtube channel Invicta has some good material on the punic wars, he uses the game total war to illustrate everything. There are a few minor mistakes there, and he only covers the first punic war, but still it's some good material.
tomlockwood 7y ago
It's probably worth noting - and I'm surprised it isn't mentioned in the article - that almost 100 years after the razing of Carthage, the enmity between Rome and Carthage is mythologised in Virgil's Aeneid. In that epic poem, its said that the people of Carthage swore to either destroy or be destroyed by the "heirs of Aeneas" aka the proto-Romans. This epic revisionism is not a singular act in history but instead one I feel we must be wary of even in the present. I see similar narratives forming about bastions of the "west" constantly assailed by the barbarians just outside the gates.
- csomar 7y ago
  > This epic revisionism is not a singular act in history but instead one I feel we must be wary of even in the present. Eh, no. Carthage and Rome are both gone. There are lots of attempt trying to draw people around the civilization again. But the population, the new religions and the new reality makes it anything but possible.
- macspoofing 7y ago
  It seems to be a property of every human society to mythologize the history of ones peoples. I'm not sure we are capable of building a society by internalizing a 'raw' version of our history. >I see similar narratives forming about bastions of the "west" constantly assailed by the barbarians just outside the gates. The irony is that this is a true statement of any major culture/society/empire/etc. Unraveling a complex structures is easy (entropy) when compared to the effort it takes to build and maintain one. All complex structures are always susceptible to atrophy and sudden collapse. All complex structures inevitably collapse due to entropy. In very real ways there are 'barbarians' at the gates of every major culture.
  - setr 7y ago
    >I'm not sure we are capable of building a society by internalizing a 'raw' version of our history. Probably because a ‘raw’ version doesn’t make much sense.. its like looking at a log file. It’s dense. Far too dense to be worth communicating in that format. So instead you pick out key facts and build out a narrative of events, usually with something in mind (a moral, a bug, etc). The bias and myth that people complain about is an inevitable result of this process.. it’s simply a complaint that one set of facts, and resulting narrative, was chosen, but this second set of facts, and narrative should have been chosen instead. Of course, sets C, D and E also exist, but they’re not being argued for.
romaaeterna 7y ago
Plutarch's version, δοκεῖ δέ μοι καὶ Καρχηδόνα μὴ εἶναι is closest to Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse. The biggest difference is that "μὴ εἶναι" isn't quite equivalent to "delendam esse". The John Bolton of ancient Rome.
afinlayson 7y ago
I like Cocoapods, but I don't think we should destroy it :p
alasdair_ 7y ago
Also notable for Mark Zuckerberg's use of the phrase repeatedly in emails to exhort his employees to ensure Google Plus didn't happen. See https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2016/06/how-mark-zuckerberg-led-facebooks-war-to-crush-google-plus https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2016/06/how-mark-zuckerberg-...
- dredmorbius 7y ago
  Zuckerberg's efforts were second only to Google's.
davidpaulyoung 7y ago
It was uttered because the practice Carthage of sacrificing children to Baal was horrific to Cato... (https://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/jan/21/carthaginians-sacrificed-own-children-study https://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/jan/21/carthaginian...)
- coliveira 7y ago
  A common thread of ancient civilizations was the denunciation of child sacrifice in other cultures, when in fact all such cultures had elements of child sacrifice. The greeks most probably also practiced child sacrifice: https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/aug/10/skeletal-remains-confirm-ancient-greeks-engaged-in-human-sacrifice https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/aug/10/skeletal-rem... The same can be said of ancient Israelites (read the tale of the daughter of Jephthah, as well as David's sacrifice of the sons of Saul "to the Lord"). The same can be said of Romans and Egyptians.
- auggierose 7y ago
  The destruction of Carthage probably included the slaughter of many children ...
  - EForEndeavour 7y ago
    And the resection of a solid tumour inevitably involves the killing of perfectly healthy cells. - If you do nothing, sacrifice continues indefinitely. - If you intervene, you'll likely cause a short-term uptick in deaths of would-be sacrifices, with the goal of completely ending sacrificial deaths thereafter.
    - TheGoddessInari 7y ago
      If everyone is dead, they can't keep going around killing each other!
FabHK 7y ago
Cato's famous phrase, "Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam", is feared for its grammar, but it is quite expressive and not really that hard. It is a combination of two constructions: ACI, Accusativus cum infinitivo, which also exists in English, sort of: I see he swims or I see him swimming (in Latin it would be "I see him to swim") = I see that he swims. The other thing is the gerundive, which expresses an obligation. Sounds complicated, but it really isn't - same thing as English "This is to be done" meaning "This ought to be done". Now, in Latin, the ACI construction can be done with many verbs, not only "to see" ("I see him swimming") but also with "censeo", or "I opine, think" ("I opine him swimming" - I think he swims.) Next, throw in a cool "Ceterum" = by the way, and combine this with the obligation of the gerundive, and we get: Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam = "By the way, I think that Carthago is to be eliminated." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accusative_and_infinitive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accusative_and_infinitive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerundive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerundive
- draw_down 7y ago
  Right, simple as can be...
- contingencies 7y ago
  TLDR: It's basically the faux-classicist version of banging on the table.
- romaaeterna 7y ago
  > Cato's famous phrase, "Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam", is feared for its grammar Surely not
  - FabHK 7y ago
    Not with your username, no :-)
- comex 7y ago
  "I see him swimming" is just a present participle, isn't it? Latin has those too and they're different. On the other hand, English has "I believe him to be swimming", and "I told him to swim", although the latter wouldn't be an accusative+infinitive in Latin.
jhallenworld 7y ago
"The First Genocide" https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=15&ved=2ahUKEwi97pfficXjAhUswlkKHdg5DRIQFjAOegQICBAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fgsp.yale.edu%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Ffirst_genocide.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1y3gd5ymM6LdZ07JOaxcFV https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&c...
ken 7y ago
Not exactly news. Mods, can we get a “150 BCE” on the title?
- komali2 7y ago
  I'm not sure I get it - am I missing some modern relevance?
FabHK 7y ago
Ok, slightly off-topic, but here goes - a great piece of music: So, the Romans finally destroyed Carthago (took them a while, Punic war 1, 2, and 3), with Cato egging them on ("Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam"). (I find it interesting for two reasons: 1. Alternative history - what if Carthago (Hannibal) had won?? 2. The Roman general who defeated Hannibal, Quintus Fabius Maximus Cunctator a) is my namesake :-) and b) won by... doing not much, just staying away and picking up the pieces (cunctator = "the delayer, doubter"). "Cunctator" is not as sexy as "Terminator", but he turned out effective nonetheless.) But next, so Virgil's Aneid has Aneas visit Carthage, in particular the queen Dido, and they fall in love, but then he, duty bound, leaves (clandestinely at night), to found Rome. She, crestfallen, commits suicide (after predicting eternal strife between Aeneas's people (Rome) and hers (Carthage)). This was set to music by English composer Purcell in Dido and Aneas, with the famous piece "Dido's Lament" - she sings before committing suicide: When I am laid // am laid in earth, may my wrongs create // No trouble, no trouble in // in thy breast Remember me, remember me, // but ah! forget my fate. Remember me, but ah! // forget my fate." The piece is brilliant - a simple underlying musical structure (Passacaglia - a constant repeated bass line) with her heart-felt lament. Check out the versions linked below (YouTube links), by Jeff Buckley or Janet Baker or Jessye Norman or any other. I mean, this did not happen, and 2500+ years ago, but still can make you tear up today. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punic_Wars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punic_Wars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeneid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeneid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quintus_Fabius_Maximus_Verrucosus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quintus_Fabius_Maximus_Verruco... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sA5UAbl1OWY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sA5UAbl1OWY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOIAi2XwuWo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOIAi2XwuWo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_50zj7J50U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_50zj7J50U https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dido%27s_Lament https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dido%27s_Lament https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passacaglia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passacaglia
masonic 7y ago
ROMANES EUNT DOMUS [0] [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIAdHEwiAy8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIAdHEwiAy8

64 points by kwikiel 7y ago

If you haven't checked out the hardcore history podcasts I recommend doing so. The punic war episodes are particularly good.

ufo 7y ago
And while we are in the topic of podcasts, "The History of Rome" by Mike Duncan is amazing.
- positr0n 7y ago
  Agreed. His second podcast series, "Revolutions", is excellent as well. I have to admit I struggled a little through the English revolution. The American revolution was much more interesting. Then the French revolution was absolutely fascinating.
  - Nightshaxx 7y ago
    I listened to the French revolution twice, it was that good.
  - evgen 7y ago
    They are all very good. Even with a decent background in history, as an American, I tended to think of the 1840s in terms of the lead up to the US Civil War and ignored/forgot most of what was happening in Europe at the time. The season he did around this period was a great reminder of all of the seeds of change and destruction for future generations that were sown in this decade.
macspoofing 7y ago
"The History of Rome" podcast is quite good as well.
ekianjo 7y ago
Let me also chime in a recommendation for Historia Civilis' podcast, very very good about the Roman era.

neferbast 7y ago

Especially if Dido back-stabs you, and she always does. Jokes aside, the youtube channel Invicta has some good material on the punic wars, he uses the game total war to illustrate everything. There are a few minor mistakes there, and he only covers the first punic war, but still it's some good material.

tomlockwood 7y ago

It's probably worth noting - and I'm surprised it isn't mentioned in the article - that almost 100 years after the razing of Carthage, the enmity between Rome and Carthage is mythologised in Virgil's Aeneid. In that epic poem, its said that the people of Carthage swore to either destroy or be destroyed by the "heirs of Aeneas" aka the proto-Romans. This epic revisionism is not a singular act in history but instead one I feel we must be wary of even in the present. I see similar narratives forming about bastions of the "west" constantly assailed by the barbarians just outside the gates.

csomar 7y ago
> This epic revisionism is not a singular act in history but instead one I feel we must be wary of even in the present. Eh, no. Carthage and Rome are both gone. There are lots of attempt trying to draw people around the civilization again. But the population, the new religions and the new reality makes it anything but possible.
macspoofing 7y ago
It seems to be a property of every human society to mythologize the history of ones peoples. I'm not sure we are capable of building a society by internalizing a 'raw' version of our history. >I see similar narratives forming about bastions of the "west" constantly assailed by the barbarians just outside the gates. The irony is that this is a true statement of any major culture/society/empire/etc. Unraveling a complex structures is easy (entropy) when compared to the effort it takes to build and maintain one. All complex structures are always susceptible to atrophy and sudden collapse. All complex structures inevitably collapse due to entropy. In very real ways there are 'barbarians' at the gates of every major culture.
- setr 7y ago
  >I'm not sure we are capable of building a society by internalizing a 'raw' version of our history. Probably because a ‘raw’ version doesn’t make much sense.. its like looking at a log file. It’s dense. Far too dense to be worth communicating in that format. So instead you pick out key facts and build out a narrative of events, usually with something in mind (a moral, a bug, etc). The bias and myth that people complain about is an inevitable result of this process.. it’s simply a complaint that one set of facts, and resulting narrative, was chosen, but this second set of facts, and narrative should have been chosen instead. Of course, sets C, D and E also exist, but they’re not being argued for.

romaaeterna 7y ago

Plutarch's version, δοκεῖ δέ μοι καὶ Καρχηδόνα μὴ εἶναι is closest to Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse. The biggest difference is that "μὴ εἶναι" isn't quite equivalent to "delendam esse". The John Bolton of ancient Rome.

afinlayson 7y ago

I like Cocoapods, but I don't think we should destroy it :p

alasdair_ 7y ago

Also notable for Mark Zuckerberg's use of the phrase repeatedly in emails to exhort his employees to ensure Google Plus didn't happen. See https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2016/06/how-mark-zuckerberg-led-facebooks-war-to-crush-google-plus https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2016/06/how-mark-zuckerberg-...

dredmorbius 7y ago
Zuckerberg's efforts were second only to Google's.

davidpaulyoung 7y ago

It was uttered because the practice Carthage of sacrificing children to Baal was horrific to Cato... (https://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/jan/21/carthaginians-sacrificed-own-children-study https://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/jan/21/carthaginian...)

coliveira 7y ago
A common thread of ancient civilizations was the denunciation of child sacrifice in other cultures, when in fact all such cultures had elements of child sacrifice. The greeks most probably also practiced child sacrifice: https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/aug/10/skeletal-remains-confirm-ancient-greeks-engaged-in-human-sacrifice https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/aug/10/skeletal-rem... The same can be said of ancient Israelites (read the tale of the daughter of Jephthah, as well as David's sacrifice of the sons of Saul "to the Lord"). The same can be said of Romans and Egyptians.
auggierose 7y ago
The destruction of Carthage probably included the slaughter of many children ...
- EForEndeavour 7y ago
  And the resection of a solid tumour inevitably involves the killing of perfectly healthy cells. - If you do nothing, sacrifice continues indefinitely. - If you intervene, you'll likely cause a short-term uptick in deaths of would-be sacrifices, with the goal of completely ending sacrificial deaths thereafter.
  - TheGoddessInari 7y ago
    If everyone is dead, they can't keep going around killing each other!

FabHK 7y ago

Cato's famous phrase, "Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam", is feared for its grammar, but it is quite expressive and not really that hard. It is a combination of two constructions: ACI, Accusativus cum infinitivo, which also exists in English, sort of: I see he swims or I see him swimming (in Latin it would be "I see him to swim") = I see that he swims. The other thing is the gerundive, which expresses an obligation. Sounds complicated, but it really isn't - same thing as English "This is to be done" meaning "This ought to be done". Now, in Latin, the ACI construction can be done with many verbs, not only "to see" ("I see him swimming") but also with "censeo", or "I opine, think" ("I opine him swimming" - I think he swims.) Next, throw in a cool "Ceterum" = by the way, and combine this with the obligation of the gerundive, and we get: Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam = "By the way, I think that Carthago is to be eliminated." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accusative_and_infinitive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accusative_and_infinitive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerundive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerundive

draw_down 7y ago
Right, simple as can be...
contingencies 7y ago
TLDR: It's basically the faux-classicist version of banging on the table.
romaaeterna 7y ago
> Cato's famous phrase, "Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam", is feared for its grammar Surely not
- FabHK 7y ago
  Not with your username, no :-)
comex 7y ago
"I see him swimming" is just a present participle, isn't it? Latin has those too and they're different. On the other hand, English has "I believe him to be swimming", and "I told him to swim", although the latter wouldn't be an accusative+infinitive in Latin.

jhallenworld 7y ago

"The First Genocide" https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=15&ved=2ahUKEwi97pfficXjAhUswlkKHdg5DRIQFjAOegQICBAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fgsp.yale.edu%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Ffirst_genocide.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1y3gd5ymM6LdZ07JOaxcFV https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&c...

ken 7y ago

Not exactly news. Mods, can we get a “150 BCE” on the title?

komali2 7y ago
I'm not sure I get it - am I missing some modern relevance?

FabHK 7y ago

Ok, slightly off-topic, but here goes - a great piece of music: So, the Romans finally destroyed Carthago (took them a while, Punic war 1, 2, and 3), with Cato egging them on ("Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam"). (I find it interesting for two reasons: 1. Alternative history - what if Carthago (Hannibal) had won?? 2. The Roman general who defeated Hannibal, Quintus Fabius Maximus Cunctator a) is my namesake :-) and b) won by... doing not much, just staying away and picking up the pieces (cunctator = "the delayer, doubter"). "Cunctator" is not as sexy as "Terminator", but he turned out effective nonetheless.) But next, so Virgil's Aneid has Aneas visit Carthage, in particular the queen Dido, and they fall in love, but then he, duty bound, leaves (clandestinely at night), to found Rome. She, crestfallen, commits suicide (after predicting eternal strife between Aeneas's people (Rome) and hers (Carthage)). This was set to music by English composer Purcell in Dido and Aneas, with the famous piece "Dido's Lament" - she sings before committing suicide: When I am laid // am laid in earth, may my wrongs create // No trouble, no trouble in // in thy breast Remember me, remember me, // but ah! forget my fate. Remember me, but ah! // forget my fate." The piece is brilliant - a simple underlying musical structure (Passacaglia - a constant repeated bass line) with her heart-felt lament. Check out the versions linked below (YouTube links), by Jeff Buckley or Janet Baker or Jessye Norman or any other. I mean, this did not happen, and 2500+ years ago, but still can make you tear up today. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punic_Wars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punic_Wars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeneid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeneid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quintus_Fabius_Maximus_Verrucosus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quintus_Fabius_Maximus_Verruco... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sA5UAbl1OWY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sA5UAbl1OWY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOIAi2XwuWo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOIAi2XwuWo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_50zj7J50U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_50zj7J50U https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dido%27s_Lament https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dido%27s_Lament https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passacaglia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passacaglia

masonic 7y ago

ROMANES EUNT DOMUS [0] [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIAdHEwiAy8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIAdHEwiAy8