2 ms·

Speeding or running a red light usually (although there are cases when you really have to hurry) is a voluntary choice which puts yourself and others in danger

Speeding or running a red light usually (although there are cases when you really have to hurry) is a voluntary choice which puts yourself and others in danger for no good reason and you just pay a fine or get jailed for some time in worst case if you get caught. Having no residence permission usually is a circumstance you can hardly change, there is no choice, your mere existence is outlawed, you are destined to live on the run or get thrown back to hell for the rest of your life if you get caught.

manigandham 7y ago
How is illegal immigration not a voluntary choice?
- qwerty456127 7y ago
  Imagine you find yourself in a pool with boiling water. Provided you can manage to get out of there, how much voluntary choice is there in choosing between getting out of there or remaining there? Once you've got out and have been told you have no legal right to remain out of it and must dive back how much voluntary choice is in choosing between abiding and jumping back into the boiling pool and running away trying to hide? I don't see much choice here, do you? There is a thing called "withdrawal reflex" - try to touch a hot pan and not to withdraw your hand once you feel it burning and you'll know how much voluntary choice you have (free hint: if you manage you probably are a kwisatz haderach). Believe me there are many places in the world which feel like this for any normal person who is not a criminal by nature and doesn't have a ton of money (you probably can just buy yourself a comfortable impenetrable bunker anywhere if you do). When my legal status was at risk I thought I will probably commit suicide if my request for residence permit renewal gets declined. Not because I want to attract attention and make drama but because I just absolutely don't want to live where I have been born (because it's brutal: high crime rate, high corruption and brutality of police, bad medical service, cheap labor, expensive low quality goods, angry dangerous closed-minded people all around - if you're not the kind you just feel you don't belong there and can't live among them), I better don't live anywhere.
  - manigandham 7y ago
    Yes, there are billions of people living in poor conditions around the world. I know first-hand what it's like. I also know the solution is not unfettered immigration. There isn't a single example where just shifting a bunch of people (and we wouldn't even approach 1% of the people in need) has ever solved any serious national issues with a country that is broken. Either way, when it comes the law, illegal entry is still a voluntary action.
    - qwerty456127 7y ago
      It seems you think on a way too high level of abstraction: bunches of people, broken countries (nobody can and will fix them anyway), percents of people in need. What I invite you to do is to imagine yourself in the role of a particular individual facing particular circumstances. There are many kinds of situations where there is just an illusion of choice. If they give you a choice to chop your head or your hand off you may end up being officially a person who has volunteered to chop his hand off but in fact this is going to be a kind of bullshit pretty easy to recognize and equally easy to ignore when it's not about you and you don't really care much. You may disagree but I hope you understand why I refuse to equate an person who has not left the country after their residence license expiration to a violent criminal or a crazy person speeding around risking innocent people's safety for sake of their madness.

manigandham 7y ago

How is illegal immigration not a voluntary choice?

qwerty456127 7y ago
Imagine you find yourself in a pool with boiling water. Provided you can manage to get out of there, how much voluntary choice is there in choosing between getting out of there or remaining there? Once you've got out and have been told you have no legal right to remain out of it and must dive back how much voluntary choice is in choosing between abiding and jumping back into the boiling pool and running away trying to hide? I don't see much choice here, do you? There is a thing called "withdrawal reflex" - try to touch a hot pan and not to withdraw your hand once you feel it burning and you'll know how much voluntary choice you have (free hint: if you manage you probably are a kwisatz haderach). Believe me there are many places in the world which feel like this for any normal person who is not a criminal by nature and doesn't have a ton of money (you probably can just buy yourself a comfortable impenetrable bunker anywhere if you do). When my legal status was at risk I thought I will probably commit suicide if my request for residence permit renewal gets declined. Not because I want to attract attention and make drama but because I just absolutely don't want to live where I have been born (because it's brutal: high crime rate, high corruption and brutality of police, bad medical service, cheap labor, expensive low quality goods, angry dangerous closed-minded people all around - if you're not the kind you just feel you don't belong there and can't live among them), I better don't live anywhere.
- manigandham 7y ago
  Yes, there are billions of people living in poor conditions around the world. I know first-hand what it's like. I also know the solution is not unfettered immigration. There isn't a single example where just shifting a bunch of people (and we wouldn't even approach 1% of the people in need) has ever solved any serious national issues with a country that is broken. Either way, when it comes the law, illegal entry is still a voluntary action.
  - qwerty456127 7y ago
    It seems you think on a way too high level of abstraction: bunches of people, broken countries (nobody can and will fix them anyway), percents of people in need. What I invite you to do is to imagine yourself in the role of a particular individual facing particular circumstances. There are many kinds of situations where there is just an illusion of choice. If they give you a choice to chop your head or your hand off you may end up being officially a person who has volunteered to chop his hand off but in fact this is going to be a kind of bullshit pretty easy to recognize and equally easy to ignore when it's not about you and you don't really care much. You may disagree but I hope you understand why I refuse to equate an person who has not left the country after their residence license expiration to a violent criminal or a crazy person speeding around risking innocent people's safety for sake of their madness.