4 ms·

It's essentially no different, but some would argue the weight of the 'crime' is different. I haven't given my personal opinion on this btw, I was just saying w

It's essentially no different, but some would argue the weight of the 'crime' is different. I haven't given my personal opinion on this btw, I was just saying who the likely target audience is, as legal residents aren't likely living worried about being deported any day now (I'm one). Hell, I don't even know if actual illegals living on the low over here would even be able to find this and know what to do with it lol. Are there illegals browsing HN? Genuinely curious.

geofft 7y ago
AIUI there are several forms of unauthorized presence in the US that are not crimes (and, like most traffic law violations, are just misdemeanors), e.g., overstaying a visa, losing an asylum claim, etc. Also the moral culpability of people brought to the US illegally as a child is approximately the moral culpability of a passenger in a child seat in a speeding car IMO. Continued presence in the US without authorization is (again AIUI) not a crime. My understanding is there are quite a few "dreamers" in tech.
- siphon22 7y ago
  Thanks, I wasn't too conscious about those other examples of unauthorized presence. Makes sense now that I think of it.
learnstats2 7y ago
You have 100% given your opinion: it's dehumanising to call people "illegals". People who are in this situation speak to other people and share good resources - if this app is useful and trustworthy (which is unclear), then it will get used.
- siphon22 7y ago
  That's you projecting what I mean by "illegals", while I'm just using official terminology. I do not have an opinion one way or the other regarding the app's existence and motives.
  - geofft 7y ago
    Official terminology is "illegal aliens" or "illegal immigrants." As people, they are not illegal: their alien status / immigration status is. (The law, I think, just uses the terms "illegal entry" / "unauthorized presence" / "inadmissible" / etc. and "illegal immigration" to describe the act in general. But USCIS, ICE, etc. do use the term "illegal alien.")
    - siphon22 7y ago
      Sorry for not making sure to use the full term. My point was though, "illegal" is not a bad word and it's used officially.
      - Thorrez 7y ago
        It's not bad as an adjective. It's bad as a noun.
        geofft 7y ago
        There is definitely a trend among US progressives to use "undocumented" instead of "illegal," even as an adjective, to avoid the connotation of illegal people. I tend to follow that personally (even though in many cases it's not technically accurate—"undocumented" folks often have regular checkins with ICE if there's no deportation order yet, while proceedings are in progress, and that process certainly generates a lot of documentation, and there's also programs like DACA) but I won't fault someone for using the official terminology in good faith.
  - 1f60c 7y ago
    …official terminology that is dehumanizing, then.
  - learnstats2 7y ago
    official in what sense, please?
    - 7y ago
- manigandham 7y ago
  "Illegal immigrant" is an accurate description. They are still humans and nobody is arguing that fact. This fuss over the terminology is a trivial matter and completely inconsequential to the lives of these people.
  - learnstats2 7y ago
    Only, it's highly consequential. Describing people in this way puts them into a category of 'other'. It defines people by their immigration status, diminishing their value as people. This allows people to justify a belief that people perceived to be in this category do not require or deserve basic human rights. Recognising that people are in a vulnerable situation is important, I agree. Happy to hear what positive action would be useful :)
    - manigandham 7y ago
      Human rights are for humans, which means everyone. The people who have trouble judging others over terminology are the same as the people who have think changing the terminology is important in anyway. It's the same group on different sides worried over frivolous matters that nobody in the subject group (illegal immigrants seeking asylum) even cares about. All this effort usually just cancels out into a big wasteful political battle that gets nothing done. It would be much better to talk accurately and come up with a real solution, such as proper detainment procedures, making sure funds and aid are available, communicating with those that are seeking asylum about what can and will happen, and then investigating and solving the root causes (conflict and leadership) in the country they're coming from.

geofft 7y ago

AIUI there are several forms of unauthorized presence in the US that are not crimes (and, like most traffic law violations, are just misdemeanors), e.g., overstaying a visa, losing an asylum claim, etc. Also the moral culpability of people brought to the US illegally as a child is approximately the moral culpability of a passenger in a child seat in a speeding car IMO. Continued presence in the US without authorization is (again AIUI) not a crime. My understanding is there are quite a few "dreamers" in tech.

siphon22 7y ago
Thanks, I wasn't too conscious about those other examples of unauthorized presence. Makes sense now that I think of it.

learnstats2 7y ago

You have 100% given your opinion: it's dehumanising to call people "illegals". People who are in this situation speak to other people and share good resources - if this app is useful and trustworthy (which is unclear), then it will get used.

siphon22 7y ago
That's you projecting what I mean by "illegals", while I'm just using official terminology. I do not have an opinion one way or the other regarding the app's existence and motives.
- geofft 7y ago
  Official terminology is "illegal aliens" or "illegal immigrants." As people, they are not illegal: their alien status / immigration status is. (The law, I think, just uses the terms "illegal entry" / "unauthorized presence" / "inadmissible" / etc. and "illegal immigration" to describe the act in general. But USCIS, ICE, etc. do use the term "illegal alien.")
  - siphon22 7y ago
    Sorry for not making sure to use the full term. My point was though, "illegal" is not a bad word and it's used officially.
    - Thorrez 7y ago
      It's not bad as an adjective. It's bad as a noun.
      - geofft 7y ago
        There is definitely a trend among US progressives to use "undocumented" instead of "illegal," even as an adjective, to avoid the connotation of illegal people. I tend to follow that personally (even though in many cases it's not technically accurate—"undocumented" folks often have regular checkins with ICE if there's no deportation order yet, while proceedings are in progress, and that process certainly generates a lot of documentation, and there's also programs like DACA) but I won't fault someone for using the official terminology in good faith.
- 1f60c 7y ago
  …official terminology that is dehumanizing, then.
- learnstats2 7y ago
  official in what sense, please?
  - 7y ago
manigandham 7y ago
"Illegal immigrant" is an accurate description. They are still humans and nobody is arguing that fact. This fuss over the terminology is a trivial matter and completely inconsequential to the lives of these people.
- learnstats2 7y ago
  Only, it's highly consequential. Describing people in this way puts them into a category of 'other'. It defines people by their immigration status, diminishing their value as people. This allows people to justify a belief that people perceived to be in this category do not require or deserve basic human rights. Recognising that people are in a vulnerable situation is important, I agree. Happy to hear what positive action would be useful :)
  - manigandham 7y ago
    Human rights are for humans, which means everyone. The people who have trouble judging others over terminology are the same as the people who have think changing the terminology is important in anyway. It's the same group on different sides worried over frivolous matters that nobody in the subject group (illegal immigrants seeking asylum) even cares about. All this effort usually just cancels out into a big wasteful political battle that gets nothing done. It would be much better to talk accurately and come up with a real solution, such as proper detainment procedures, making sure funds and aid are available, communicating with those that are seeking asylum about what can and will happen, and then investigating and solving the root causes (conflict and leadership) in the country they're coming from.