6 ms·

Unless I'm misunderstanding, the app appears to be for helping illegal immigrants evade being captured.

by siphon22 7y ago

_red 7y ago
Out of interest, are apps that help you break the law against iOS App Store guidelines?
- geofft 7y ago
  The app is to notify your family and legal counsel that you've been taken into custody, not to actively prevent you from being taken into custody (how would that even work?). It's not any more "help you break the law" than an app that helps you find or communicate with defense lawyers, IMO. It's significantly less useful for breaking the law than Signal or even Safari.
bestnameever 7y ago
From their homepage, it appears to be an app to notify others prior that you are about to be detained.
gpm 7y ago
It sounds to me like it's just as much about notifying people that you need a lawyer... But even for that purpose, flashing your lights on the highway to inform oncoming drivers of speedtraps has been found to be free speech (iirc), I don't see how this is different.
gruez 7y ago
How's this any different than apps like waze that helps drivers (of the speeding, or running a red light variety) from being caught?
- siphon22 7y ago
  It's essentially no different, but some would argue the weight of the 'crime' is different. I haven't given my personal opinion on this btw, I was just saying who the likely target audience is, as legal residents aren't likely living worried about being deported any day now (I'm one). Hell, I don't even know if actual illegals living on the low over here would even be able to find this and know what to do with it lol. Are there illegals browsing HN? Genuinely curious.
  - geofft 7y ago
    AIUI there are several forms of unauthorized presence in the US that are not crimes (and, like most traffic law violations, are just misdemeanors), e.g., overstaying a visa, losing an asylum claim, etc. Also the moral culpability of people brought to the US illegally as a child is approximately the moral culpability of a passenger in a child seat in a speeding car IMO. Continued presence in the US without authorization is (again AIUI) not a crime. My understanding is there are quite a few "dreamers" in tech.
    - siphon22 7y ago
      Thanks, I wasn't too conscious about those other examples of unauthorized presence. Makes sense now that I think of it.
  - learnstats2 7y ago
    You have 100% given your opinion: it's dehumanising to call people "illegals". People who are in this situation speak to other people and share good resources - if this app is useful and trustworthy (which is unclear), then it will get used.
    - siphon22 7y ago
      That's you projecting what I mean by "illegals", while I'm just using official terminology. I do not have an opinion one way or the other regarding the app's existence and motives.
      - geofft 7y ago
        Official terminology is "illegal aliens" or "illegal immigrants." As people, they are not illegal: their alien status / immigration status is. (The law, I think, just uses the terms "illegal entry" / "unauthorized presence" / "inadmissible" / etc. and "illegal immigration" to describe the act in general. But USCIS, ICE, etc. do use the term "illegal alien.")
        7y ago
- HappyDreamer 7y ago
  It's different in that the speeding drivers might kill someone by causing a car crash. I don't like helping others drive extra fast. But I like the app and I hope the immigrants can stay.
- qwerty456127 7y ago
  Speeding or running a red light usually (although there are cases when you really have to hurry) is a voluntary choice which puts yourself and others in danger for no good reason and you just pay a fine or get jailed for some time in worst case if you get caught. Having no residence permission usually is a circumstance you can hardly change, there is no choice, your mere existence is outlawed, you are destined to live on the run or get thrown back to hell for the rest of your life if you get caught.
  - manigandham 7y ago
    How is illegal immigration not a voluntary choice?
    - qwerty456127 7y ago
      Imagine you find yourself in a pool with boiling water. Provided you can manage to get out of there, how much voluntary choice is there in choosing between getting out of there or remaining there? Once you've got out and have been told you have no legal right to remain out of it and must dive back how much voluntary choice is in choosing between abiding and jumping back into the boiling pool and running away trying to hide? I don't see much choice here, do you? There is a thing called "withdrawal reflex" - try to touch a hot pan and not to withdraw your hand once you feel it burning and you'll know how much voluntary choice you have (free hint: if you manage you probably are a kwisatz haderach). Believe me there are many places in the world which feel like this for any normal person who is not a criminal by nature and doesn't have a ton of money (you probably can just buy yourself a comfortable impenetrable bunker anywhere if you do). When my legal status was at risk I thought I will probably commit suicide if my request for residence permit renewal gets declined. Not because I want to attract attention and make drama but because I just absolutely don't want to live where I have been born (because it's brutal: high crime rate, high corruption and brutality of police, bad medical service, cheap labor, expensive low quality goods, angry dangerous closed-minded people all around - if you're not the kind you just feel you don't belong there and can't live among them), I better don't live anywhere.
      - 7y ago
eridius 7y ago
How does this help anyone evade anything? It's for notifying contacts when you're about to be detained, not for avoiding being detained.

Unless I'm misunderstanding, the app appears to be for helping illegal immigrants evade being captured.

_red 7y ago

Out of interest, are apps that help you break the law against iOS App Store guidelines?

geofft 7y ago
The app is to notify your family and legal counsel that you've been taken into custody, not to actively prevent you from being taken into custody (how would that even work?). It's not any more "help you break the law" than an app that helps you find or communicate with defense lawyers, IMO. It's significantly less useful for breaking the law than Signal or even Safari.

bestnameever 7y ago

From their homepage, it appears to be an app to notify others prior that you are about to be detained.

gpm 7y ago

It sounds to me like it's just as much about notifying people that you need a lawyer... But even for that purpose, flashing your lights on the highway to inform oncoming drivers of speedtraps has been found to be free speech (iirc), I don't see how this is different.

gruez 7y ago

How's this any different than apps like waze that helps drivers (of the speeding, or running a red light variety) from being caught?

siphon22 7y ago
It's essentially no different, but some would argue the weight of the 'crime' is different. I haven't given my personal opinion on this btw, I was just saying who the likely target audience is, as legal residents aren't likely living worried about being deported any day now (I'm one). Hell, I don't even know if actual illegals living on the low over here would even be able to find this and know what to do with it lol. Are there illegals browsing HN? Genuinely curious.
- geofft 7y ago
  AIUI there are several forms of unauthorized presence in the US that are not crimes (and, like most traffic law violations, are just misdemeanors), e.g., overstaying a visa, losing an asylum claim, etc. Also the moral culpability of people brought to the US illegally as a child is approximately the moral culpability of a passenger in a child seat in a speeding car IMO. Continued presence in the US without authorization is (again AIUI) not a crime. My understanding is there are quite a few "dreamers" in tech.
  - siphon22 7y ago
    Thanks, I wasn't too conscious about those other examples of unauthorized presence. Makes sense now that I think of it.
- learnstats2 7y ago
  You have 100% given your opinion: it's dehumanising to call people "illegals". People who are in this situation speak to other people and share good resources - if this app is useful and trustworthy (which is unclear), then it will get used.
  - siphon22 7y ago
    That's you projecting what I mean by "illegals", while I'm just using official terminology. I do not have an opinion one way or the other regarding the app's existence and motives.
    - geofft 7y ago
      Official terminology is "illegal aliens" or "illegal immigrants." As people, they are not illegal: their alien status / immigration status is. (The law, I think, just uses the terms "illegal entry" / "unauthorized presence" / "inadmissible" / etc. and "illegal immigration" to describe the act in general. But USCIS, ICE, etc. do use the term "illegal alien.")
      - 7y ago
HappyDreamer 7y ago
It's different in that the speeding drivers might kill someone by causing a car crash. I don't like helping others drive extra fast. But I like the app and I hope the immigrants can stay.
qwerty456127 7y ago
Speeding or running a red light usually (although there are cases when you really have to hurry) is a voluntary choice which puts yourself and others in danger for no good reason and you just pay a fine or get jailed for some time in worst case if you get caught. Having no residence permission usually is a circumstance you can hardly change, there is no choice, your mere existence is outlawed, you are destined to live on the run or get thrown back to hell for the rest of your life if you get caught.
- manigandham 7y ago
  How is illegal immigration not a voluntary choice?
  - qwerty456127 7y ago
    Imagine you find yourself in a pool with boiling water. Provided you can manage to get out of there, how much voluntary choice is there in choosing between getting out of there or remaining there? Once you've got out and have been told you have no legal right to remain out of it and must dive back how much voluntary choice is in choosing between abiding and jumping back into the boiling pool and running away trying to hide? I don't see much choice here, do you? There is a thing called "withdrawal reflex" - try to touch a hot pan and not to withdraw your hand once you feel it burning and you'll know how much voluntary choice you have (free hint: if you manage you probably are a kwisatz haderach). Believe me there are many places in the world which feel like this for any normal person who is not a criminal by nature and doesn't have a ton of money (you probably can just buy yourself a comfortable impenetrable bunker anywhere if you do). When my legal status was at risk I thought I will probably commit suicide if my request for residence permit renewal gets declined. Not because I want to attract attention and make drama but because I just absolutely don't want to live where I have been born (because it's brutal: high crime rate, high corruption and brutality of police, bad medical service, cheap labor, expensive low quality goods, angry dangerous closed-minded people all around - if you're not the kind you just feel you don't belong there and can't live among them), I better don't live anywhere.
    - 7y ago

eridius 7y ago

How does this help anyone evade anything? It's for notifying contacts when you're about to be detained, not for avoiding being detained.