5 ms·

"If you are 18 or older, you do have to carry your green card with you. Section 264(e) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (I.N.A.) requires all lawful perma

"If you are 18 or older, you do have to carry your green card with you. Section 264(e) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (I.N.A.) requires all lawful permanent residents (LPRs) to have “at all times” official evidence of LPR status." [1] https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/do-i-really-need-carry-green-card-me.html https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/do-i-really-need-car... So, I'd just show my green card instead of pulling out an app.

untog 7y ago
...and if you don't have a green card?
- weiming 7y ago
  I guess someone could show a driver license as it requires a bunch of prove-your-identity documents to get, at least in my state.
  - lazyasciiart 7y ago
    Depends on the state - many (most? all?) states let people on temporary visas get a drivers license, and don't tie the period of validity together. But more importantly, since there is no system to revoke a drivers license if your immigration status is revoked, a drivers license can only be used as proof that you were able to show legal status in the past, not that you have it now.
    - yjftsjthsd-h 7y ago
      > and don't tie the period of validity together That seems... foolish? Like allowing a root/intermediate CA to sign leaf certs to be valid after their own expiration.
      - lazyasciiart 7y ago
        Not exactly. It's more like, your email account at work doesn't automatically deactivate when you die. They're totally separate systems with different requirements.
    - manigandham 7y ago
      Some states (like California) allow illegal immigrants to still attain driver licenses.
    - morpheuskafka 7y ago
      If it's a Real ID, then the federal government has a database with the documents you used to get it so they can quickly see your US or foreign citizenship and easily find your record from there.
- winter_blue 7y ago
  If you're on a visa, you should download the PDF of your I-94 (they've been all electronic since 2013) from the CBP's website. Either print and carry the I-94 around with you, or save the PDF of it to your phone (and hope you have battery life if you ever get stopped by these people). If you're a citizen, my understanding is that you only have to show some form of ID (e.g. a driver's license).
  - untog 7y ago
    So what about if you provide ID and they still detain you for three weeks anyway? https://www.dallasnews.com/news/immigration/2019/07/22/dallas-born-citizen-picked-border-patrol-detained-three-weeks https://www.dallasnews.com/news/immigration/2019/07/22/dalla...
    - anon12345690 7y ago
      so did you read it? his mom is illegal his brother is illegal and another riding in the same car is illegal. they crossed the border and got questioned. they tried verifying his info but his mom put a false name on his birth certificate, claimed he was born in mexico before and got him a visitors visa from mexico to the US when he was a minor. so it sucks he stayed there so long but are you gonna say this is normal? can you find any case where a legal person with no false papers or illegal family members while crossing the border got detained?
- manigandham 7y ago
  Do you mean physically? They can lookup your information. Same thing when you lose your wallet/license and get stopped by police.
  - untog 7y ago
    I meant more if you are not a green card holder. Could be on a visa, or just a tourist. "Just show your green card" isn't a valid answer for everyone
    - manigandham 7y ago
      Then show your visa. Proper paperwork and identification is required for everyone, citizens included.
      - pas 7y ago
        Is there federal law that mandates citizens to carry ID?
        manigandham 7y ago
        It's not illegal to not have ID as a citizen, but several states and federal cases have upheld requirements that you must identify yourself when necessary, which is effectively the same thing. The point is that you must have clear legal status and documentation, whether that's physically on you as a person (for green card holders) or available to be looked up (for everyone).
      - untog 7y ago
        What if ICE thinks it's fake? What if they don't believe you are a tourist? All of this relies on a judgement call by ICE, and many people do not trust their judgements. Not unjustifiably.
        manigandham 7y ago
        They look up your information. This is done millions of times every day by law enforcement. The physical ID just speeds up the process. It's not a "judgement call" to believe you or not when it comes to identification.
lazyasciiart 7y ago
People who have a green card are not the intended audience of this app.
- asveikau 7y ago
  There have been reports of people with green cards and even naturalized citizens having trouble lately. There have even been press reports of naturalizations being challenged or native born Americans being told their birth certificates are fake.
  - donw 7y ago
    I'd like to read more. Links?
    - asveikau 7y ago
      I read these stories over the last few years as they appeared in the press, so I don't have them handy, and your google-fu is as good as mine. Here are a few that came up in a search. https://www.npr.org/2018/08/30/643218390/report-u-s-denies-passports-and-questions-americans-birth-certificates https://www.npr.org/2018/08/30/643218390/report-u-s-denies-p... https://thehill.com/opinion/immigration/396923-trump-administration-now-has-naturalized-citizens-in-its-sights https://thehill.com/opinion/immigration/396923-trump-adminis... -- opinion piece citing this: http://apnews.com/1da389a535684a5f9d0da74081c242f3 http://apnews.com/1da389a535684a5f9d0da74081c242f3 https://www.npr.org/2019/01/17/686188335/ice-tried-to-deport-this-u-s-citizen-and-marine-veteran https://www.npr.org/2019/01/17/686188335/ice-tried-to-deport... Then of course there was the widely reported fact that the travel ban initially intentionally affected people with valid visas, green cards, and dual citizenship. The short version is if you are legally in this country (either by visa, green card, naturalization or native birth) but have any reason to think somebody would ever believe you might not be (perhaps due to accent, skin color, name), it is very understandable that you may be concerned with everything going around in the headlines.
      - fzeroracer 7y ago
siphon22 7y ago
Unless I'm misunderstanding, the app appears to be for helping illegal immigrants evade being captured.
- _red 7y ago
  Out of interest, are apps that help you break the law against iOS App Store guidelines?
  - geofft 7y ago
    The app is to notify your family and legal counsel that you've been taken into custody, not to actively prevent you from being taken into custody (how would that even work?). It's not any more "help you break the law" than an app that helps you find or communicate with defense lawyers, IMO. It's significantly less useful for breaking the law than Signal or even Safari.
- bestnameever 7y ago
  From their homepage, it appears to be an app to notify others prior that you are about to be detained.
- gpm 7y ago
  It sounds to me like it's just as much about notifying people that you need a lawyer... But even for that purpose, flashing your lights on the highway to inform oncoming drivers of speedtraps has been found to be free speech (iirc), I don't see how this is different.
- gruez 7y ago
  How's this any different than apps like waze that helps drivers (of the speeding, or running a red light variety) from being caught?
  - siphon22 7y ago
    It's essentially no different, but some would argue the weight of the 'crime' is different. I haven't given my personal opinion on this btw, I was just saying who the likely target audience is, as legal residents aren't likely living worried about being deported any day now (I'm one). Hell, I don't even know if actual illegals living on the low over here would even be able to find this and know what to do with it lol. Are there illegals browsing HN? Genuinely curious.
winter_blue 7y ago
You're either being snarky, or intentionally disingenuous. One of HN's rules is: Don't be snarky.[1] Green card holders are obviously not the intended audience of this app. I'm not sure how you missed that. Also, considering how extraordinarily difficult[2] it is to get to a green card, your comment came off as a bit condescending. [1] See: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html [2] See: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19857878 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19857878
- siphon22 7y ago
  His post seemed genuine and like an appropriate thing to ask to me. No need to get the pitchforks yet, you can try talking to the person and clearing any misunderstandings first.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- manigandham 7y ago
  Difficulty in gaining a green card is not an excuse for illegal immigration.
- masonic 7y ago
  extraordinarily difficult The USA grants over a million new Permanent Residencies a year.
stinkbug9o 7y ago
i remain unconvinced this has much to do with legal citizenship: https://www.thedailybeast.com/1488-us-citizens-mistakenly-arrested-detained-by-ice-since-2012 https://www.thedailybeast.com/1488-us-citizens-mistakenly-ar...
chrischen 7y ago
You can just claim you are a citizen. They told us citizens don’t have to carry proof.
- jdsully 7y ago
  Falsely claiming citizenship is a felony and will make you inadmissible to the USA. You may even lose your green card. See 18 U.S. Code § 911
  - chrischen 7y ago
    But this is for people who aren’t legally allowed in the US in the first place no?
    - jdsully 7y ago
      What would make you think that? The law is quite plain in how its written.
geofft 7y ago
What if they take you into custody anyway? Detention of US citizens with passports has become increasingly common: https://twitter.com/repbarragan/status/1152359133330444288 https://twitter.com/repbarragan/status/1152359133330444288 (citizen daughter taken into custody along with undocumented parent, released after congressperson intervened) https://www.wbez.org/shows/wbez-news/ohare-standoff-border-patrol-detaining-three-children-of-undocumented-parents/285e32de-2516-4be2-b660-fd7b0419e913 https://www.wbez.org/shows/wbez-news/ohare-standoff-border-p... (citizen children detained at airport for 12+ hours on arrival to US, CBP insisted on only releasing them to their undocumented mother) https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Young-US-Citizen-Detained-at-Border-Gave-Inconsistent-Info-CBP-507437381.html https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Young-US-Citizen-Deta... (citizen 9-year-old in possession of her passport detained for 32 hours with no coherent reason provided) https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/us-is-denying-passports-to-americans-along-the-border-throwing-their-citizenship-into-question/2018/08/29/1d630e84-a0da-11e8-a3dd-2a1991f075d5_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/us-is-deny... (passport applicants with valid US birth certificates who were born near the Mexican border placed in deportation proceedings) What makes you think your green card will keep you safe? You are right that you have the legal right of habeas corpus, but whether you have the practical ability to convince government agents to lead you alone is quite a different thing, and has always been that way under every government.
- manigandham 7y ago
  Is this actually "increasingly common"? Seems like a few instances posted on social media with mostly cursory descriptions of what happened. The 2nd link is about an illegal immigrant mother who didn't want to come to the airport to pick up her children. They were released once she showed up, and the only reason they were stopped was because they were travelling with another person who had no legal status and was not admitted to the country. The 3rd link is about preteen children who were told to "walk across the border instead" because the line was moving too slow, leading to questioning to verify the identity. Not following the rules/law is the cause of 2 of those stories.
- bruceb 7y ago
  Something on twitter doesn't make anything "increasingly common" A child crossing the border alone might make any country worried about them.

untog 7y ago

...and if you don't have a green card?

weiming 7y ago
I guess someone could show a driver license as it requires a bunch of prove-your-identity documents to get, at least in my state.
- lazyasciiart 7y ago
  Depends on the state - many (most? all?) states let people on temporary visas get a drivers license, and don't tie the period of validity together. But more importantly, since there is no system to revoke a drivers license if your immigration status is revoked, a drivers license can only be used as proof that you were able to show legal status in the past, not that you have it now.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 7y ago
    > and don't tie the period of validity together That seems... foolish? Like allowing a root/intermediate CA to sign leaf certs to be valid after their own expiration.
    - lazyasciiart 7y ago
      Not exactly. It's more like, your email account at work doesn't automatically deactivate when you die. They're totally separate systems with different requirements.
  - manigandham 7y ago
    Some states (like California) allow illegal immigrants to still attain driver licenses.
  - morpheuskafka 7y ago
    If it's a Real ID, then the federal government has a database with the documents you used to get it so they can quickly see your US or foreign citizenship and easily find your record from there.
winter_blue 7y ago
If you're on a visa, you should download the PDF of your I-94 (they've been all electronic since 2013) from the CBP's website. Either print and carry the I-94 around with you, or save the PDF of it to your phone (and hope you have battery life if you ever get stopped by these people). If you're a citizen, my understanding is that you only have to show some form of ID (e.g. a driver's license).
- untog 7y ago
  So what about if you provide ID and they still detain you for three weeks anyway? https://www.dallasnews.com/news/immigration/2019/07/22/dallas-born-citizen-picked-border-patrol-detained-three-weeks https://www.dallasnews.com/news/immigration/2019/07/22/dalla...
  - anon12345690 7y ago
    so did you read it? his mom is illegal his brother is illegal and another riding in the same car is illegal. they crossed the border and got questioned. they tried verifying his info but his mom put a false name on his birth certificate, claimed he was born in mexico before and got him a visitors visa from mexico to the US when he was a minor. so it sucks he stayed there so long but are you gonna say this is normal? can you find any case where a legal person with no false papers or illegal family members while crossing the border got detained?
manigandham 7y ago
Do you mean physically? They can lookup your information. Same thing when you lose your wallet/license and get stopped by police.
- untog 7y ago
  I meant more if you are not a green card holder. Could be on a visa, or just a tourist. "Just show your green card" isn't a valid answer for everyone
  - manigandham 7y ago
    Then show your visa. Proper paperwork and identification is required for everyone, citizens included.
    - pas 7y ago
      Is there federal law that mandates citizens to carry ID?
      - manigandham 7y ago
        It's not illegal to not have ID as a citizen, but several states and federal cases have upheld requirements that you must identify yourself when necessary, which is effectively the same thing. The point is that you must have clear legal status and documentation, whether that's physically on you as a person (for green card holders) or available to be looked up (for everyone).
    - untog 7y ago
      What if ICE thinks it's fake? What if they don't believe you are a tourist? All of this relies on a judgement call by ICE, and many people do not trust their judgements. Not unjustifiably.
      - manigandham 7y ago
        They look up your information. This is done millions of times every day by law enforcement. The physical ID just speeds up the process. It's not a "judgement call" to believe you or not when it comes to identification.

lazyasciiart 7y ago

People who have a green card are not the intended audience of this app.

asveikau 7y ago
There have been reports of people with green cards and even naturalized citizens having trouble lately. There have even been press reports of naturalizations being challenged or native born Americans being told their birth certificates are fake.
- donw 7y ago
  I'd like to read more. Links?
  - asveikau 7y ago
    I read these stories over the last few years as they appeared in the press, so I don't have them handy, and your google-fu is as good as mine. Here are a few that came up in a search. https://www.npr.org/2018/08/30/643218390/report-u-s-denies-passports-and-questions-americans-birth-certificates https://www.npr.org/2018/08/30/643218390/report-u-s-denies-p... https://thehill.com/opinion/immigration/396923-trump-administration-now-has-naturalized-citizens-in-its-sights https://thehill.com/opinion/immigration/396923-trump-adminis... -- opinion piece citing this: http://apnews.com/1da389a535684a5f9d0da74081c242f3 http://apnews.com/1da389a535684a5f9d0da74081c242f3 https://www.npr.org/2019/01/17/686188335/ice-tried-to-deport-this-u-s-citizen-and-marine-veteran https://www.npr.org/2019/01/17/686188335/ice-tried-to-deport... Then of course there was the widely reported fact that the travel ban initially intentionally affected people with valid visas, green cards, and dual citizenship. The short version is if you are legally in this country (either by visa, green card, naturalization or native birth) but have any reason to think somebody would ever believe you might not be (perhaps due to accent, skin color, name), it is very understandable that you may be concerned with everything going around in the headlines.
    - fzeroracer 7y ago

siphon22 7y ago

Unless I'm misunderstanding, the app appears to be for helping illegal immigrants evade being captured.

_red 7y ago
Out of interest, are apps that help you break the law against iOS App Store guidelines?
- geofft 7y ago
  The app is to notify your family and legal counsel that you've been taken into custody, not to actively prevent you from being taken into custody (how would that even work?). It's not any more "help you break the law" than an app that helps you find or communicate with defense lawyers, IMO. It's significantly less useful for breaking the law than Signal or even Safari.
bestnameever 7y ago
From their homepage, it appears to be an app to notify others prior that you are about to be detained.
gpm 7y ago
It sounds to me like it's just as much about notifying people that you need a lawyer... But even for that purpose, flashing your lights on the highway to inform oncoming drivers of speedtraps has been found to be free speech (iirc), I don't see how this is different.
gruez 7y ago
How's this any different than apps like waze that helps drivers (of the speeding, or running a red light variety) from being caught?
- siphon22 7y ago
  It's essentially no different, but some would argue the weight of the 'crime' is different. I haven't given my personal opinion on this btw, I was just saying who the likely target audience is, as legal residents aren't likely living worried about being deported any day now (I'm one). Hell, I don't even know if actual illegals living on the low over here would even be able to find this and know what to do with it lol. Are there illegals browsing HN? Genuinely curious.

winter_blue 7y ago

You're either being snarky, or intentionally disingenuous. One of HN's rules is: Don't be snarky.[1] Green card holders are obviously not the intended audience of this app. I'm not sure how you missed that. Also, considering how extraordinarily difficult[2] it is to get to a green card, your comment came off as a bit condescending. [1] See: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html [2] See: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19857878 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19857878

siphon22 7y ago
His post seemed genuine and like an appropriate thing to ask to me. No need to get the pitchforks yet, you can try talking to the person and clearing any misunderstandings first.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
manigandham 7y ago
Difficulty in gaining a green card is not an excuse for illegal immigration.
masonic 7y ago
extraordinarily difficult The USA grants over a million new Permanent Residencies a year.

stinkbug9o 7y ago

i remain unconvinced this has much to do with legal citizenship: https://www.thedailybeast.com/1488-us-citizens-mistakenly-arrested-detained-by-ice-since-2012 https://www.thedailybeast.com/1488-us-citizens-mistakenly-ar...

chrischen 7y ago

You can just claim you are a citizen. They told us citizens don’t have to carry proof.

jdsully 7y ago
Falsely claiming citizenship is a felony and will make you inadmissible to the USA. You may even lose your green card. See 18 U.S. Code § 911
- chrischen 7y ago
  But this is for people who aren’t legally allowed in the US in the first place no?
  - jdsully 7y ago
    What would make you think that? The law is quite plain in how its written.

geofft 7y ago

What if they take you into custody anyway? Detention of US citizens with passports has become increasingly common: https://twitter.com/repbarragan/status/1152359133330444288 https://twitter.com/repbarragan/status/1152359133330444288 (citizen daughter taken into custody along with undocumented parent, released after congressperson intervened) https://www.wbez.org/shows/wbez-news/ohare-standoff-border-patrol-detaining-three-children-of-undocumented-parents/285e32de-2516-4be2-b660-fd7b0419e913 https://www.wbez.org/shows/wbez-news/ohare-standoff-border-p... (citizen children detained at airport for 12+ hours on arrival to US, CBP insisted on only releasing them to their undocumented mother) https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Young-US-Citizen-Detained-at-Border-Gave-Inconsistent-Info-CBP-507437381.html https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Young-US-Citizen-Deta... (citizen 9-year-old in possession of her passport detained for 32 hours with no coherent reason provided) https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/us-is-denying-passports-to-americans-along-the-border-throwing-their-citizenship-into-question/2018/08/29/1d630e84-a0da-11e8-a3dd-2a1991f075d5_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/us-is-deny... (passport applicants with valid US birth certificates who were born near the Mexican border placed in deportation proceedings) What makes you think your green card will keep you safe? You are right that you have the legal right of habeas corpus, but whether you have the practical ability to convince government agents to lead you alone is quite a different thing, and has always been that way under every government.

manigandham 7y ago
Is this actually "increasingly common"? Seems like a few instances posted on social media with mostly cursory descriptions of what happened. The 2nd link is about an illegal immigrant mother who didn't want to come to the airport to pick up her children. They were released once she showed up, and the only reason they were stopped was because they were travelling with another person who had no legal status and was not admitted to the country. The 3rd link is about preteen children who were told to "walk across the border instead" because the line was moving too slow, leading to questioning to verify the identity. Not following the rules/law is the cause of 2 of those stories.
bruceb 7y ago
Something on twitter doesn't make anything "increasingly common" A child crossing the border alone might make any country worried about them.