15 ms·

Notifica – an app for if you're at risk of being detained by ICE agents

105 points by dluan 7y ago

weiming 7y ago
"If you are 18 or older, you do have to carry your green card with you. Section 264(e) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (I.N.A.) requires all lawful permanent residents (LPRs) to have “at all times” official evidence of LPR status." [1] https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/do-i-really-need-carry-green-card-me.html https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/do-i-really-need-car... So, I'd just show my green card instead of pulling out an app.
- untog 7y ago
  ...and if you don't have a green card?
  - weiming 7y ago
    I guess someone could show a driver license as it requires a bunch of prove-your-identity documents to get, at least in my state.
    - lazyasciiart 7y ago
      Depends on the state - many (most? all?) states let people on temporary visas get a drivers license, and don't tie the period of validity together. But more importantly, since there is no system to revoke a drivers license if your immigration status is revoked, a drivers license can only be used as proof that you were able to show legal status in the past, not that you have it now.
      - yjftsjthsd-h 7y ago
        > and don't tie the period of validity together That seems... foolish? Like allowing a root/intermediate CA to sign leaf certs to be valid after their own expiration.
        lazyasciiart 7y ago
        Not exactly. It's more like, your email account at work doesn't automatically deactivate when you die. They're totally separate systems with different requirements.
      - manigandham 7y ago
        Some states (like California) allow illegal immigrants to still attain driver licenses.
      - morpheuskafka 7y ago
        If it's a Real ID, then the federal government has a database with the documents you used to get it so they can quickly see your US or foreign citizenship and easily find your record from there.
  - winter_blue 7y ago
    If you're on a visa, you should download the PDF of your I-94 (they've been all electronic since 2013) from the CBP's website. Either print and carry the I-94 around with you, or save the PDF of it to your phone (and hope you have battery life if you ever get stopped by these people). If you're a citizen, my understanding is that you only have to show some form of ID (e.g. a driver's license).
    - untog 7y ago
      So what about if you provide ID and they still detain you for three weeks anyway? https://www.dallasnews.com/news/immigration/2019/07/22/dallas-born-citizen-picked-border-patrol-detained-three-weeks https://www.dallasnews.com/news/immigration/2019/07/22/dalla...
      - anon12345690 7y ago
        so did you read it? his mom is illegal his brother is illegal and another riding in the same car is illegal. they crossed the border and got questioned. they tried verifying his info but his mom put a false name on his birth certificate, claimed he was born in mexico before and got him a visitors visa from mexico to the US when he was a minor. so it sucks he stayed there so long but are you gonna say this is normal? can you find any case where a legal person with no false papers or illegal family members while crossing the border got detained?
  - manigandham 7y ago
    Do you mean physically? They can lookup your information. Same thing when you lose your wallet/license and get stopped by police.
    - untog 7y ago
      I meant more if you are not a green card holder. Could be on a visa, or just a tourist. "Just show your green card" isn't a valid answer for everyone
      - manigandham 7y ago
        Then show your visa. Proper paperwork and identification is required for everyone, citizens included.
        pas 7y ago
        Is there federal law that mandates citizens to carry ID?
        manigandham 7y ago
        It's not illegal to not have ID as a citizen, but several states and federal cases have upheld requirements that you must identify yourself when necessary, which is effectively the same thing. The point is that you must have clear legal status and documentation, whether that's physically on you as a person (for green card holders) or available to be looked up (for everyone).
        untog 7y ago
        What if ICE thinks it's fake? What if they don't believe you are a tourist? All of this relies on a judgement call by ICE, and many people do not trust their judgements. Not unjustifiably.
        manigandham 7y ago
        They look up your information. This is done millions of times every day by law enforcement. The physical ID just speeds up the process. It's not a "judgement call" to believe you or not when it comes to identification.
- lazyasciiart 7y ago
  People who have a green card are not the intended audience of this app.
  - asveikau 7y ago
    There have been reports of people with green cards and even naturalized citizens having trouble lately. There have even been press reports of naturalizations being challenged or native born Americans being told their birth certificates are fake.
    - donw 7y ago
      I'd like to read more. Links?
      - asveikau 7y ago
        I read these stories over the last few years as they appeared in the press, so I don't have them handy, and your google-fu is as good as mine. Here are a few that came up in a search. https://www.npr.org/2018/08/30/643218390/report-u-s-denies-passports-and-questions-americans-birth-certificates https://www.npr.org/2018/08/30/643218390/report-u-s-denies-p... https://thehill.com/opinion/immigration/396923-trump-administration-now-has-naturalized-citizens-in-its-sights https://thehill.com/opinion/immigration/396923-trump-adminis... -- opinion piece citing this: http://apnews.com/1da389a535684a5f9d0da74081c242f3 http://apnews.com/1da389a535684a5f9d0da74081c242f3 https://www.npr.org/2019/01/17/686188335/ice-tried-to-deport-this-u-s-citizen-and-marine-veteran https://www.npr.org/2019/01/17/686188335/ice-tried-to-deport... Then of course there was the widely reported fact that the travel ban initially intentionally affected people with valid visas, green cards, and dual citizenship. The short version is if you are legally in this country (either by visa, green card, naturalization or native birth) but have any reason to think somebody would ever believe you might not be (perhaps due to accent, skin color, name), it is very understandable that you may be concerned with everything going around in the headlines.
        fzeroracer 7y ago
- siphon22 7y ago
  Unless I'm misunderstanding, the app appears to be for helping illegal immigrants evade being captured.
  - _red 7y ago
    Out of interest, are apps that help you break the law against iOS App Store guidelines?
    - geofft 7y ago
      The app is to notify your family and legal counsel that you've been taken into custody, not to actively prevent you from being taken into custody (how would that even work?). It's not any more "help you break the law" than an app that helps you find or communicate with defense lawyers, IMO. It's significantly less useful for breaking the law than Signal or even Safari.
  - bestnameever 7y ago
    From their homepage, it appears to be an app to notify others prior that you are about to be detained.
  - gpm 7y ago
    It sounds to me like it's just as much about notifying people that you need a lawyer... But even for that purpose, flashing your lights on the highway to inform oncoming drivers of speedtraps has been found to be free speech (iirc), I don't see how this is different.
  - gruez 7y ago
    How's this any different than apps like waze that helps drivers (of the speeding, or running a red light variety) from being caught?
    - siphon22 7y ago
      It's essentially no different, but some would argue the weight of the 'crime' is different. I haven't given my personal opinion on this btw, I was just saying who the likely target audience is, as legal residents aren't likely living worried about being deported any day now (I'm one). Hell, I don't even know if actual illegals living on the low over here would even be able to find this and know what to do with it lol. Are there illegals browsing HN? Genuinely curious.
- winter_blue 7y ago
  You're either being snarky, or intentionally disingenuous. One of HN's rules is: Don't be snarky.[1] Green card holders are obviously not the intended audience of this app. I'm not sure how you missed that. Also, considering how extraordinarily difficult[2] it is to get to a green card, your comment came off as a bit condescending. [1] See: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html [2] See: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19857878 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19857878
  - siphon22 7y ago
    His post seemed genuine and like an appropriate thing to ask to me. No need to get the pitchforks yet, you can try talking to the person and clearing any misunderstandings first.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - manigandham 7y ago
    Difficulty in gaining a green card is not an excuse for illegal immigration.
  - masonic 7y ago
    extraordinarily difficult The USA grants over a million new Permanent Residencies a year.
- stinkbug9o 7y ago
  i remain unconvinced this has much to do with legal citizenship: https://www.thedailybeast.com/1488-us-citizens-mistakenly-arrested-detained-by-ice-since-2012 https://www.thedailybeast.com/1488-us-citizens-mistakenly-ar...
- chrischen 7y ago
  You can just claim you are a citizen. They told us citizens don’t have to carry proof.
  - jdsully 7y ago
    Falsely claiming citizenship is a felony and will make you inadmissible to the USA. You may even lose your green card. See 18 U.S. Code § 911
    - chrischen 7y ago
      But this is for people who aren’t legally allowed in the US in the first place no?
      - jdsully 7y ago
        What would make you think that? The law is quite plain in how its written.
- geofft 7y ago
  What if they take you into custody anyway? Detention of US citizens with passports has become increasingly common: https://twitter.com/repbarragan/status/1152359133330444288 https://twitter.com/repbarragan/status/1152359133330444288 (citizen daughter taken into custody along with undocumented parent, released after congressperson intervened) https://www.wbez.org/shows/wbez-news/ohare-standoff-border-patrol-detaining-three-children-of-undocumented-parents/285e32de-2516-4be2-b660-fd7b0419e913 https://www.wbez.org/shows/wbez-news/ohare-standoff-border-p... (citizen children detained at airport for 12+ hours on arrival to US, CBP insisted on only releasing them to their undocumented mother) https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Young-US-Citizen-Detained-at-Border-Gave-Inconsistent-Info-CBP-507437381.html https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Young-US-Citizen-Deta... (citizen 9-year-old in possession of her passport detained for 32 hours with no coherent reason provided) https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/us-is-denying-passports-to-americans-along-the-border-throwing-their-citizenship-into-question/2018/08/29/1d630e84-a0da-11e8-a3dd-2a1991f075d5_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/us-is-deny... (passport applicants with valid US birth certificates who were born near the Mexican border placed in deportation proceedings) What makes you think your green card will keep you safe? You are right that you have the legal right of habeas corpus, but whether you have the practical ability to convince government agents to lead you alone is quite a different thing, and has always been that way under every government.
  - manigandham 7y ago
    Is this actually "increasingly common"? Seems like a few instances posted on social media with mostly cursory descriptions of what happened. The 2nd link is about an illegal immigrant mother who didn't want to come to the airport to pick up her children. They were released once she showed up, and the only reason they were stopped was because they were travelling with another person who had no legal status and was not admitted to the country. The 3rd link is about preteen children who were told to "walk across the border instead" because the line was moving too slow, leading to questioning to verify the identity. Not following the rules/law is the cause of 2 of those stories.
  - bruceb 7y ago
    Something on twitter doesn't make anything "increasingly common" A child crossing the border alone might make any country worried about them.
conductr 7y ago
Think I’d just assume this app was a honeypot wanting to track/report my location
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
mLuby 7y ago
This sounds like a noble tool, unless it's not. In the most cynical case, sharing your contacts and location via this app could make ICE's job much easier. How can people tell which it is?
- onemoresoop 7y ago
  You think this could be a trap?
  - cyphar 7y ago
    If I were a spook, it's definitely a technique I'd try (the FBI has run honeypots before). But other commenters have mentioned that it's run by a reputable group, so it's probably not a massive concern (then again we know that intelligence sharing occurs between the NSA and other agencies -- if I were ICE I'd ask the NSA to get information about the users of the app). I do imagine there is some legal red tape to get around if you actually want to use it as evidence in immigration investigations. Then again, you don't need to use it as evidence -- all you need is a lead and you can get all the evidence necessary when you detain them.
- geofft 7y ago
  The app is from United We Dream, which is well-known to not be on ICE's side. Of course, that doesn't account for possibilities like United We Dream being an elaborate ICE front (a la 1984's Brotherhood), the app developers being compromised by / secretly working for ICE, the app or its servers being compromised by ICE, etc.
  - nerdponx 7y ago
    Small-scale compromise seems well within the realm of possibility.
  - kortilla 7y ago
    Does United we dream have the security chops to understand all of the risks of using hosting/cloud services from companies that have to comply with US government secret court warrants? If this thing used anything like GCE or AWS that would be pretty negligent.
CharlesMerriam2 7y ago
Comments are likely to stray far from actual information for this story. It is an app. It is only an app.
- siphon22 7y ago
  Judging the app/website itself, it annoys me. You can see the first iMessage bubble for a few seconds but then it gets pushed out of view by the second message and the top part gets cut off. Based on the website, it looks like they are trying to appeal to young people at a cafe in leisure rather than at-risk people on the run from government agencies lol. It doesn't look like anything I would put my trust in if I were in that situation.
- nerdponx 7y ago
  An app that could put you and your family members at risk of being put in a concentration camp and/or deported.
  - microcolonel 7y ago
    Where are persons in the US with smartphones and service being sent to the border detention centers? Also how are they concentration camps? The whole premise is that you are free not to enter them, by staying where you're welcome. Nobody's dragging central Americans out of Mexico to put them in the extremely expensive detention centers at the border. They do make mistakes, like any LEO, but you can generally predict whether you'll be detained by whether you have committed an offense.
    - nerdponx 7y ago
      Literally where? Where are persons in the US with smartphones and service being sent to the border detention centers Nowhere yet. That's what I'm questioning, whether this is legit or just a way to end up on a watch list. Also they are concentration camps by any reasonable definition of the term: https://www.wordnik.com/words/concentration%20camp https://www.wordnik.com/words/concentration%20camp
devoply 7y ago
What if ICE or a company funded by them released such an app? Not like covert fronts for various government orgs don't exist.
boringuser1 7y ago
This app helps people break the law. Lol.
dkd903 7y ago
Unbelievable - an app that aims to help the illegal immigrants. So basically let the legal immigrants eat their own $h*t.
ryeights 7y ago
I wonder if Apple/Google would approve an app to protect drug dealers from DEA agents. This app seems to promote illegal activity
- ceejayoz 7y ago
  Waze has been on both stores for years, and one of its core features is advance warnings of where law enforcement are.
  - ryeights 7y ago
    Good point.
- digsy 7y ago
  ICE have been detaining and deporting legal aliens. Being cautious as an immigrant is just a sensible precaution at this point.
  - ryeights 7y ago
    Sure, but the stated purpose of the organization behind this app is to protect undocumented (i.e. illegal) immigrants: https://unitedwedream.org/about/ https://unitedwedream.org/about/ edit: can you show an example of a legal immigrant being deported?
    - belltaco 7y ago
      https://jacquelinestevens.org/US-Unlawfully-Detaining.StevensVSP18.32011.pdf https://jacquelinestevens.org/US-Unlawfully-Detaining.Steven...
  - bluthru 7y ago
    >ICE have been detaining and deporting legal aliens. How does a legal alien get deported when there are literally millions of illegal aliens? Mistaken identity? Do you know how many wrongful deportations there are?
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
nerdponx 7y ago
The app is closed source? Hard pass. Unless you know the data is being securely encrypted client-side, there is no way someone in a sensitive targeted group should make it known that they have this app, let alone upload personal contact information to a server somewhere. The organization behind it looks legit enough, but that doesn't stop one guy with a USB stick from exfiltrating the whole database.
- cyphar 7y ago
  Even if the app encrypts everything client-side and does everything over Tor, just having the app installed on your phone (which both Google Play and the Apple App Store track) is sufficient to make you look suspicious from that point of view. Really, what you'd need is a very popular app to add a feature like this so that the percentage of users of the app that are potentially undocumented immigrants is the same as their proportion of the population. Then you do all the other crypto and hopefully don't store whether individual users have the feature enabled.
  - nerdponx 7y ago
    I also feel like "contact these 5 people in case I get detained" is a more general use case that could dilute the "target pool" more. Journalists, sex workers, hackers, etc.
the_pwner224 7y ago
The scrollwheel does not work on this webpage in Firefox. It's quite rare to see a site with issues in FF, but having the scrollwheel completely broken is a first. I can still drag the scrollbar to scroll, but on many systems there has been a move to having the scrollbars hidden by default.
- pdkl95 7y ago
  > but on many systems there has been a move to having the scrollbars hidden by default Which is terrible for those of us without scroll wheels. The user agent can implement scrollbars in unpredictable ways to accommodate local needs. Reimplementing scrolling will always have compatibility and accessibility issues. (scrollwheels were a major source of my RSI issues, so I have to disable the scrollwheel. I sometimes have it mapped to thumb buttons 8 & 9, but that isn't practical for scrolling long pages)
  - aasasd 7y ago
    > scrollwheels were a major source of my RSI issues You might be interested in trying a touch-scroll mouse—it's somewhat like touchpad scroll, only needs a gentle sweep of the finger and a bit easier to scroll continuously a desired distance. Personally, I'd particularly like to try Logitech Zone Touch T400 (https://i.imgur.com/cjmP0tc.jpg https://i.imgur.com/cjmP0tc.jpg), but it disappeared from the local market so I'm using a meh Genius mouse instead, which is still better than a scrollwheel.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- pgcj_poster 7y ago
  I especially love when devs mess up their CSS and I see three scrollbars instead of one.
paxys 7y ago
Is there anything stopping ICE from requesting the details and locations of everyone who has signed up for the app? I'm sure there's one judge in the country willing to sign off on the order.
- akamel 7y ago
  And that order would be easily challenged.
- microcolonel 7y ago
  Probably that such an order could still be too broad; even though the two main purposes of such an app are lawbreaking (and counsel to marginally-valid residents) and maybe some strange form of voyeurism.
  - geofft 7y ago
    The app doesn't facilitate lawbreaking. The app facilitates notifying people that you are entering custody of law enforcement, for a law that has (perhaps) been broken in the past. It's basically a warrant canary. The purpose of a warrant canary is not to refuse to comply with the law: on the contrary, it only communicates something nontrivial if you intend to comply with the law!
    - microcolonel 7y ago
      Yeah, I misread the copy initially maybe. It's meant to notify third parties that you have.. already been detained? Still seems like it's meant at least somewhat to help people evade lawful detention. At best, though, it seems like it could aid a lawful purpose. I don't have a particular problem with it if that is even a fifth of the intended use case.
      - saagarjha 7y ago
        It doesn’t help people evade detention at all.
duxup 7y ago
The app seems to imply it ... helps. Does this really stop the inevitable deportation? and other than informing others.... what else is the outcome that the app helps with? While I see the value of having an attorney the site isn't clear what else it can do or help with.
- saagarjha 7y ago
  It helps other people know you’ve been detained, so they can try to help you or make sure that things you care about are taken care of.
amingilani 7y ago
Off-topic, but this reminds me of a crazy idea I had and never worked on (like a lot of ideas): Time-locked device encryption for when you're traveling through borders that are known to search your electronic devices and/or install malware. Basically, ransomware, but the good kind that encrypts all the data on your device and holds the key until: A. You've passed the border (or checkpoint) B. You've securely authenticated yourself C. Are sure your device wasn't tampered with
- yjftsjthsd-h 7y ago
  > B. You've securely authenticated yourself Probably is going to be a fatal flaw, since it leaves you open to the "rubber hose" sector of attacks (in various legal forms).
  - amingilani 7y ago
    Agreed, that's why all those conditions must be met and not just one. Ofcourse, you can always extend the condition, like D. Have a second person, not traveling with you, vouch that you're safe.
- pizza 7y ago
  Interestingly enough, Julian Assange (among others) conducted research into encrypted filesystems that relied upon deniable encryption [0]. Depending upon which key you fed it, it would reveal different files. If you had a robust solution to time-locked encryption, that in itself would be worth a lot! (Anybody keeping up to tabs on that stuff know about whether or not its achievable / what the SOTA is?) [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubberhose_(file_system) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubberhose_(file_system)
  - amingilani 7y ago
    I'm sorry, when I said time-locked, I meant an app running in a server releases the key to you after a certain amount of time :)
    - 7y ago

105 points by dluan 7y ago

"If you are 18 or older, you do have to carry your green card with you. Section 264(e) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (I.N.A.) requires all lawful permanent residents (LPRs) to have “at all times” official evidence of LPR status." [1] https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/do-i-really-need-carry-green-card-me.html https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/do-i-really-need-car... So, I'd just show my green card instead of pulling out an app.

untog 7y ago
...and if you don't have a green card?
- weiming 7y ago
  I guess someone could show a driver license as it requires a bunch of prove-your-identity documents to get, at least in my state.
  - lazyasciiart 7y ago
    Depends on the state - many (most? all?) states let people on temporary visas get a drivers license, and don't tie the period of validity together. But more importantly, since there is no system to revoke a drivers license if your immigration status is revoked, a drivers license can only be used as proof that you were able to show legal status in the past, not that you have it now.
    - yjftsjthsd-h 7y ago
      > and don't tie the period of validity together That seems... foolish? Like allowing a root/intermediate CA to sign leaf certs to be valid after their own expiration.
      - lazyasciiart 7y ago
        Not exactly. It's more like, your email account at work doesn't automatically deactivate when you die. They're totally separate systems with different requirements.
    - manigandham 7y ago
      Some states (like California) allow illegal immigrants to still attain driver licenses.
    - morpheuskafka 7y ago
      If it's a Real ID, then the federal government has a database with the documents you used to get it so they can quickly see your US or foreign citizenship and easily find your record from there.
- winter_blue 7y ago
  If you're on a visa, you should download the PDF of your I-94 (they've been all electronic since 2013) from the CBP's website. Either print and carry the I-94 around with you, or save the PDF of it to your phone (and hope you have battery life if you ever get stopped by these people). If you're a citizen, my understanding is that you only have to show some form of ID (e.g. a driver's license).
  - untog 7y ago
    So what about if you provide ID and they still detain you for three weeks anyway? https://www.dallasnews.com/news/immigration/2019/07/22/dallas-born-citizen-picked-border-patrol-detained-three-weeks https://www.dallasnews.com/news/immigration/2019/07/22/dalla...
    - anon12345690 7y ago
      so did you read it? his mom is illegal his brother is illegal and another riding in the same car is illegal. they crossed the border and got questioned. they tried verifying his info but his mom put a false name on his birth certificate, claimed he was born in mexico before and got him a visitors visa from mexico to the US when he was a minor. so it sucks he stayed there so long but are you gonna say this is normal? can you find any case where a legal person with no false papers or illegal family members while crossing the border got detained?
- manigandham 7y ago
  Do you mean physically? They can lookup your information. Same thing when you lose your wallet/license and get stopped by police.
  - untog 7y ago
    I meant more if you are not a green card holder. Could be on a visa, or just a tourist. "Just show your green card" isn't a valid answer for everyone
    - manigandham 7y ago
      Then show your visa. Proper paperwork and identification is required for everyone, citizens included.
      - pas 7y ago
        Is there federal law that mandates citizens to carry ID?
        manigandham 7y ago
        It's not illegal to not have ID as a citizen, but several states and federal cases have upheld requirements that you must identify yourself when necessary, which is effectively the same thing. The point is that you must have clear legal status and documentation, whether that's physically on you as a person (for green card holders) or available to be looked up (for everyone).
      - untog 7y ago
        What if ICE thinks it's fake? What if they don't believe you are a tourist? All of this relies on a judgement call by ICE, and many people do not trust their judgements. Not unjustifiably.
        manigandham 7y ago
        They look up your information. This is done millions of times every day by law enforcement. The physical ID just speeds up the process. It's not a "judgement call" to believe you or not when it comes to identification.
lazyasciiart 7y ago
People who have a green card are not the intended audience of this app.
- asveikau 7y ago
  There have been reports of people with green cards and even naturalized citizens having trouble lately. There have even been press reports of naturalizations being challenged or native born Americans being told their birth certificates are fake.
  - donw 7y ago
    I'd like to read more. Links?
    - asveikau 7y ago
      I read these stories over the last few years as they appeared in the press, so I don't have them handy, and your google-fu is as good as mine. Here are a few that came up in a search. https://www.npr.org/2018/08/30/643218390/report-u-s-denies-passports-and-questions-americans-birth-certificates https://www.npr.org/2018/08/30/643218390/report-u-s-denies-p... https://thehill.com/opinion/immigration/396923-trump-administration-now-has-naturalized-citizens-in-its-sights https://thehill.com/opinion/immigration/396923-trump-adminis... -- opinion piece citing this: http://apnews.com/1da389a535684a5f9d0da74081c242f3 http://apnews.com/1da389a535684a5f9d0da74081c242f3 https://www.npr.org/2019/01/17/686188335/ice-tried-to-deport-this-u-s-citizen-and-marine-veteran https://www.npr.org/2019/01/17/686188335/ice-tried-to-deport... Then of course there was the widely reported fact that the travel ban initially intentionally affected people with valid visas, green cards, and dual citizenship. The short version is if you are legally in this country (either by visa, green card, naturalization or native birth) but have any reason to think somebody would ever believe you might not be (perhaps due to accent, skin color, name), it is very understandable that you may be concerned with everything going around in the headlines.
      - fzeroracer 7y ago
siphon22 7y ago
Unless I'm misunderstanding, the app appears to be for helping illegal immigrants evade being captured.
- _red 7y ago
  Out of interest, are apps that help you break the law against iOS App Store guidelines?
  - geofft 7y ago
    The app is to notify your family and legal counsel that you've been taken into custody, not to actively prevent you from being taken into custody (how would that even work?). It's not any more "help you break the law" than an app that helps you find or communicate with defense lawyers, IMO. It's significantly less useful for breaking the law than Signal or even Safari.
- bestnameever 7y ago
  From their homepage, it appears to be an app to notify others prior that you are about to be detained.
- gpm 7y ago
  It sounds to me like it's just as much about notifying people that you need a lawyer... But even for that purpose, flashing your lights on the highway to inform oncoming drivers of speedtraps has been found to be free speech (iirc), I don't see how this is different.
- gruez 7y ago
  How's this any different than apps like waze that helps drivers (of the speeding, or running a red light variety) from being caught?
  - siphon22 7y ago
    It's essentially no different, but some would argue the weight of the 'crime' is different. I haven't given my personal opinion on this btw, I was just saying who the likely target audience is, as legal residents aren't likely living worried about being deported any day now (I'm one). Hell, I don't even know if actual illegals living on the low over here would even be able to find this and know what to do with it lol. Are there illegals browsing HN? Genuinely curious.
winter_blue 7y ago
You're either being snarky, or intentionally disingenuous. One of HN's rules is: Don't be snarky.[1] Green card holders are obviously not the intended audience of this app. I'm not sure how you missed that. Also, considering how extraordinarily difficult[2] it is to get to a green card, your comment came off as a bit condescending. [1] See: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html [2] See: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19857878 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19857878
- siphon22 7y ago
  His post seemed genuine and like an appropriate thing to ask to me. No need to get the pitchforks yet, you can try talking to the person and clearing any misunderstandings first.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- manigandham 7y ago
  Difficulty in gaining a green card is not an excuse for illegal immigration.
- masonic 7y ago
  extraordinarily difficult The USA grants over a million new Permanent Residencies a year.
stinkbug9o 7y ago
i remain unconvinced this has much to do with legal citizenship: https://www.thedailybeast.com/1488-us-citizens-mistakenly-arrested-detained-by-ice-since-2012 https://www.thedailybeast.com/1488-us-citizens-mistakenly-ar...
chrischen 7y ago
You can just claim you are a citizen. They told us citizens don’t have to carry proof.
- jdsully 7y ago
  Falsely claiming citizenship is a felony and will make you inadmissible to the USA. You may even lose your green card. See 18 U.S. Code § 911
  - chrischen 7y ago
    But this is for people who aren’t legally allowed in the US in the first place no?
    - jdsully 7y ago
      What would make you think that? The law is quite plain in how its written.
geofft 7y ago
What if they take you into custody anyway? Detention of US citizens with passports has become increasingly common: https://twitter.com/repbarragan/status/1152359133330444288 https://twitter.com/repbarragan/status/1152359133330444288 (citizen daughter taken into custody along with undocumented parent, released after congressperson intervened) https://www.wbez.org/shows/wbez-news/ohare-standoff-border-patrol-detaining-three-children-of-undocumented-parents/285e32de-2516-4be2-b660-fd7b0419e913 https://www.wbez.org/shows/wbez-news/ohare-standoff-border-p... (citizen children detained at airport for 12+ hours on arrival to US, CBP insisted on only releasing them to their undocumented mother) https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Young-US-Citizen-Detained-at-Border-Gave-Inconsistent-Info-CBP-507437381.html https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Young-US-Citizen-Deta... (citizen 9-year-old in possession of her passport detained for 32 hours with no coherent reason provided) https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/us-is-denying-passports-to-americans-along-the-border-throwing-their-citizenship-into-question/2018/08/29/1d630e84-a0da-11e8-a3dd-2a1991f075d5_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/us-is-deny... (passport applicants with valid US birth certificates who were born near the Mexican border placed in deportation proceedings) What makes you think your green card will keep you safe? You are right that you have the legal right of habeas corpus, but whether you have the practical ability to convince government agents to lead you alone is quite a different thing, and has always been that way under every government.
- manigandham 7y ago
  Is this actually "increasingly common"? Seems like a few instances posted on social media with mostly cursory descriptions of what happened. The 2nd link is about an illegal immigrant mother who didn't want to come to the airport to pick up her children. They were released once she showed up, and the only reason they were stopped was because they were travelling with another person who had no legal status and was not admitted to the country. The 3rd link is about preteen children who were told to "walk across the border instead" because the line was moving too slow, leading to questioning to verify the identity. Not following the rules/law is the cause of 2 of those stories.
- bruceb 7y ago
  Something on twitter doesn't make anything "increasingly common" A child crossing the border alone might make any country worried about them.

conductr 7y ago

Think I’d just assume this app was a honeypot wanting to track/report my location

deleted 7y ago
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mLuby 7y ago

This sounds like a noble tool, unless it's not. In the most cynical case, sharing your contacts and location via this app could make ICE's job much easier. How can people tell which it is?

onemoresoop 7y ago
You think this could be a trap?
- cyphar 7y ago
  If I were a spook, it's definitely a technique I'd try (the FBI has run honeypots before). But other commenters have mentioned that it's run by a reputable group, so it's probably not a massive concern (then again we know that intelligence sharing occurs between the NSA and other agencies -- if I were ICE I'd ask the NSA to get information about the users of the app). I do imagine there is some legal red tape to get around if you actually want to use it as evidence in immigration investigations. Then again, you don't need to use it as evidence -- all you need is a lead and you can get all the evidence necessary when you detain them.
geofft 7y ago
The app is from United We Dream, which is well-known to not be on ICE's side. Of course, that doesn't account for possibilities like United We Dream being an elaborate ICE front (a la 1984's Brotherhood), the app developers being compromised by / secretly working for ICE, the app or its servers being compromised by ICE, etc.
- nerdponx 7y ago
  Small-scale compromise seems well within the realm of possibility.
- kortilla 7y ago
  Does United we dream have the security chops to understand all of the risks of using hosting/cloud services from companies that have to comply with US government secret court warrants? If this thing used anything like GCE or AWS that would be pretty negligent.

CharlesMerriam2 7y ago

Comments are likely to stray far from actual information for this story. It is an app. It is only an app.

siphon22 7y ago
Judging the app/website itself, it annoys me. You can see the first iMessage bubble for a few seconds but then it gets pushed out of view by the second message and the top part gets cut off. Based on the website, it looks like they are trying to appeal to young people at a cafe in leisure rather than at-risk people on the run from government agencies lol. It doesn't look like anything I would put my trust in if I were in that situation.
nerdponx 7y ago
An app that could put you and your family members at risk of being put in a concentration camp and/or deported.
- microcolonel 7y ago
  Where are persons in the US with smartphones and service being sent to the border detention centers? Also how are they concentration camps? The whole premise is that you are free not to enter them, by staying where you're welcome. Nobody's dragging central Americans out of Mexico to put them in the extremely expensive detention centers at the border. They do make mistakes, like any LEO, but you can generally predict whether you'll be detained by whether you have committed an offense.
  - nerdponx 7y ago
    Literally where? Where are persons in the US with smartphones and service being sent to the border detention centers Nowhere yet. That's what I'm questioning, whether this is legit or just a way to end up on a watch list. Also they are concentration camps by any reasonable definition of the term: https://www.wordnik.com/words/concentration%20camp https://www.wordnik.com/words/concentration%20camp

devoply 7y ago

What if ICE or a company funded by them released such an app? Not like covert fronts for various government orgs don't exist.

boringuser1 7y ago

This app helps people break the law. Lol.

dkd903 7y ago

Unbelievable - an app that aims to help the illegal immigrants. So basically let the legal immigrants eat their own $h*t.

ryeights 7y ago

I wonder if Apple/Google would approve an app to protect drug dealers from DEA agents. This app seems to promote illegal activity

ceejayoz 7y ago
Waze has been on both stores for years, and one of its core features is advance warnings of where law enforcement are.
- ryeights 7y ago
  Good point.
digsy 7y ago
ICE have been detaining and deporting legal aliens. Being cautious as an immigrant is just a sensible precaution at this point.
- ryeights 7y ago
  Sure, but the stated purpose of the organization behind this app is to protect undocumented (i.e. illegal) immigrants: https://unitedwedream.org/about/ https://unitedwedream.org/about/ edit: can you show an example of a legal immigrant being deported?
  - belltaco 7y ago
    https://jacquelinestevens.org/US-Unlawfully-Detaining.StevensVSP18.32011.pdf https://jacquelinestevens.org/US-Unlawfully-Detaining.Steven...
- bluthru 7y ago
  >ICE have been detaining and deporting legal aliens. How does a legal alien get deported when there are literally millions of illegal aliens? Mistaken identity? Do you know how many wrongful deportations there are?

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

nerdponx 7y ago

The app is closed source? Hard pass. Unless you know the data is being securely encrypted client-side, there is no way someone in a sensitive targeted group should make it known that they have this app, let alone upload personal contact information to a server somewhere. The organization behind it looks legit enough, but that doesn't stop one guy with a USB stick from exfiltrating the whole database.

cyphar 7y ago
Even if the app encrypts everything client-side and does everything over Tor, just having the app installed on your phone (which both Google Play and the Apple App Store track) is sufficient to make you look suspicious from that point of view. Really, what you'd need is a very popular app to add a feature like this so that the percentage of users of the app that are potentially undocumented immigrants is the same as their proportion of the population. Then you do all the other crypto and hopefully don't store whether individual users have the feature enabled.
- nerdponx 7y ago
  I also feel like "contact these 5 people in case I get detained" is a more general use case that could dilute the "target pool" more. Journalists, sex workers, hackers, etc.

the_pwner224 7y ago

The scrollwheel does not work on this webpage in Firefox. It's quite rare to see a site with issues in FF, but having the scrollwheel completely broken is a first. I can still drag the scrollbar to scroll, but on many systems there has been a move to having the scrollbars hidden by default.

pdkl95 7y ago
> but on many systems there has been a move to having the scrollbars hidden by default Which is terrible for those of us without scroll wheels. The user agent can implement scrollbars in unpredictable ways to accommodate local needs. Reimplementing scrolling will always have compatibility and accessibility issues. (scrollwheels were a major source of my RSI issues, so I have to disable the scrollwheel. I sometimes have it mapped to thumb buttons 8 & 9, but that isn't practical for scrolling long pages)
- aasasd 7y ago
  > scrollwheels were a major source of my RSI issues You might be interested in trying a touch-scroll mouse—it's somewhat like touchpad scroll, only needs a gentle sweep of the finger and a bit easier to scroll continuously a desired distance. Personally, I'd particularly like to try Logitech Zone Touch T400 (https://i.imgur.com/cjmP0tc.jpg https://i.imgur.com/cjmP0tc.jpg), but it disappeared from the local market so I'm using a meh Genius mouse instead, which is still better than a scrollwheel.
deleted 7y ago
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pgcj_poster 7y ago
I especially love when devs mess up their CSS and I see three scrollbars instead of one.

paxys 7y ago

Is there anything stopping ICE from requesting the details and locations of everyone who has signed up for the app? I'm sure there's one judge in the country willing to sign off on the order.

akamel 7y ago
And that order would be easily challenged.
microcolonel 7y ago
Probably that such an order could still be too broad; even though the two main purposes of such an app are lawbreaking (and counsel to marginally-valid residents) and maybe some strange form of voyeurism.
- geofft 7y ago
  The app doesn't facilitate lawbreaking. The app facilitates notifying people that you are entering custody of law enforcement, for a law that has (perhaps) been broken in the past. It's basically a warrant canary. The purpose of a warrant canary is not to refuse to comply with the law: on the contrary, it only communicates something nontrivial if you intend to comply with the law!
  - microcolonel 7y ago
    Yeah, I misread the copy initially maybe. It's meant to notify third parties that you have.. already been detained? Still seems like it's meant at least somewhat to help people evade lawful detention. At best, though, it seems like it could aid a lawful purpose. I don't have a particular problem with it if that is even a fifth of the intended use case.
    - saagarjha 7y ago
      It doesn’t help people evade detention at all.

duxup 7y ago

The app seems to imply it ... helps. Does this really stop the inevitable deportation? and other than informing others.... what else is the outcome that the app helps with? While I see the value of having an attorney the site isn't clear what else it can do or help with.

saagarjha 7y ago
It helps other people know you’ve been detained, so they can try to help you or make sure that things you care about are taken care of.

amingilani 7y ago

Off-topic, but this reminds me of a crazy idea I had and never worked on (like a lot of ideas): Time-locked device encryption for when you're traveling through borders that are known to search your electronic devices and/or install malware. Basically, ransomware, but the good kind that encrypts all the data on your device and holds the key until: A. You've passed the border (or checkpoint) B. You've securely authenticated yourself C. Are sure your device wasn't tampered with

yjftsjthsd-h 7y ago
> B. You've securely authenticated yourself Probably is going to be a fatal flaw, since it leaves you open to the "rubber hose" sector of attacks (in various legal forms).
- amingilani 7y ago
  Agreed, that's why all those conditions must be met and not just one. Ofcourse, you can always extend the condition, like D. Have a second person, not traveling with you, vouch that you're safe.
pizza 7y ago
Interestingly enough, Julian Assange (among others) conducted research into encrypted filesystems that relied upon deniable encryption [0]. Depending upon which key you fed it, it would reveal different files. If you had a robust solution to time-locked encryption, that in itself would be worth a lot! (Anybody keeping up to tabs on that stuff know about whether or not its achievable / what the SOTA is?) [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubberhose_(file_system) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubberhose_(file_system)
- amingilani 7y ago
  I'm sorry, when I said time-locked, I meant an app running in a server releases the key to you after a certain amount of time :)
  - 7y ago