7 ms·

So he decided he'd figured out her scam without ever bringing it up in yearly or monthly review. He also never asked for proof of the 10 days of sick leave afte

by lkey 7y ago

So he decided he'd figured out her scam without ever bringing it up in yearly or monthly review. He also never asked for proof of the 10 days of sick leave after the first year, which is reasonable to do if he had a suspicion she was flouting a rule. If he wanted to factor sick days into his pay decision, he had a responsibility to make sure he was correct using the proper internal channels. An alternate and equally plausible view is that she had a condition that rendered her borderline ill more than 10 days a year, but couldn't afford to take unpaid leave. So she just 'toughed it out' instead for the remaining days. Laughing vindictively as you deny a raise to someone isn't something be lauded or emulated under any circumstance.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
capex 7y ago
I come to HN for comments like this.
WalterBright 7y ago
Fair enough, I agree he was being passive aggressive, but on the other hand, if someone is doing something that has the appearance of impropriety, it's a good idea to proactively bring it up with the boss to head off the suspicions.
- CPLX 7y ago
  There’s not a fucking thing that’s even slightly improper about taking your allotted PTO days.
  - WalterBright 7y ago
    It is improper to take sick leave if you're not sick. It wouldn't be improper if it is labeled PTO. I.e. it depends on how the policy is written.
    - sharkweek 7y ago
      Define sick. Contagious cold? A rough day with anxiety/depression? Struggling with the side effects of a new medicine? Hung over from a night of partying? If the company’s policy is 10 days, then there is zero reason to negatively judge an employee for using those days.
      - WalterBright 7y ago
        My father once told me that honor is what separates men from animals, and honor is what you do when nobody is looking. We all get to choose who we are. I was also fortunate to attend a university with an honor system, to the extent that exams weren't even allowed to be proctored. Whether you cheated or not was up to you, nobody would know. I appreciated that system, and have tried to live it long after graduation. I could go on, but it has proved to be more than worthwhile.
        kranner 7y ago
        The honor system should extend to trusting employee's assessment of them being sick enough not to be able to work. No, we don't all get to choose who we are. People don't choose to have depression, or <<insert any chronic illness>>
        SamReidHughes 7y ago
        Not when they get sick every year the last week of December.
        jogjayr 7y ago
        That would be a valid reason to ask for a doctor's note. But even then I'd only do it if their absence is negatively impacting productivity and they're really needed at work. Or if there is something else in their performance I was concerned about. Otherwise a lot of offices are basically empty at that time, so who cares? As long as they're not coming to work when they're actually sick so they can hoard sick days, does it matter?
- JustSomeNobody 7y ago
  So she was given 10 days sick per year but she isn’t allowed to take all 10 without being up to no good?
- chrsstrm 7y ago
  What does "improper" mean and who gets to decide what actions are improper? Paid days are paid days and just because they have a certain name doesn't change a thing. Has anyone ever been accused of faking a vacation? Of course not, because that would be ridiculous. But since sick days are called sick days all of a sudden you need to prove you're bedridden or else face consequences? That's absurd. Treat your employees like adults.
  - zdragnar 7y ago
    Sick days and vacation days typically have different notification requirements- in most places that had them I've worked at, it was 2 weeks for vacation and asap for sick leave. Vacation time could be denied if, say, the job involved time sensitive equipment or safety related tasks (I.e. nursing) and others had already requested the time off. Abusing sick leave- depending on the job- has very real consequences for your coworkers and company, if someone absolutely has to pick up your slack.
    - chrsstrm 7y ago
      So do those consequences you mention suddenly disappear if you're _actually_ sick? The fixation on "abuse" and that it can be easily determined doesn't make sense.
      - zdragnar 7y ago
        No, the consequences don't disappear. But, if you're in a position where when there's a difference in notice required for planned (vacation) and unplanned (sick) time off, and you take sick time off for vacation, you're effectively creating an unnecessary disruption. Maybe the manager has to scramble to find someone willing to come in on short notice. Maybe a temp staffer has to be hired in from an agency. Maybe that's not feasible, and someone has to work a double shift. Depends entirely on the job. If it doesn't matter, then the company shouldn't be distinguishing between vacation and sick time off anyway. If it does matter, then personally I wouldn't want to work with someone who would do that.
    - jschwartzi 7y ago
- lkey 7y ago
  Have you ever been managed by a passive-aggressive person? I haven't personally, but I know many people who have been, and the stain they leave on a team lasts years. Your implication here is that it the the subordinate's job to read the mind of management. She must know what is 'proper' in her manager's mind outside of the explicit rules of the job. Management, however, is allowed to read her state of mind incorrectly and adjust her pay accordingly. Obviously power imbalances like this exist everywhere, and it's wise to be proactive and careful, but that doesn't mean we should hold up examples like these as just or reasonable outcomes.
Fomite 7y ago
This was my immediate thought: "I bet she's sick for more than 10 days a year". But who knows. Maybe one of his employees trying to work through being sick will come in and give him norovirus. A man can hope.
- mcny 7y ago
  Personally, I think PTO subsuming sick leave ought to be illegal. I've seen multiple people with bright, red noses in the office unable to function much but won't go home because they can't afford to take the day off and they already have plans to take PTO two months out. Why should I have to risk getting the flu because of this nonsense?
  - anon314134314 7y ago
    In Sweden at least, it ("PTO subsuming sick leave") is illegal. Vacation days (of which minimum is 25 for full time employees, but often 30 or more) are a completely separate thing from sick days. When you're sick, you're sick. The employer pays for the first 14 days (minus a deduction of a fifth of a average week's pay and 20% per day) and the state pays after that. Those 14 days are per incident, not per year, and being sick is not a valid reason for letting someone go. If you happen to be sick during your vacation, that too counts as sick days and not vacation days. All of this is by law.
  - c0vfefe 7y ago
    I find int helpful for companies to convert unused sick time into vacation time at a rate like 2/3. This provides less incentive for faking sick.
    - Fomite 7y ago
      Alternately, it incentivizes coming in sick and making your co-workers sick. As an epidemiologist, I hate policies that allow sick days to be converted into something of value, or that put's restrictions in them.
      - 7y ago
DrScump 7y ago
My first programming job was for a defense contractor. There was no PTO concept, just vacation (2 whole weeks a year) and sick leave (12 days a year). Unused sick leave accrued indefinitely but was not usable in any other way. I was putting myself through University and still had about 2.5 years of work. I was taking 12-13 units at night year round. So, there were times when I'd use a sick day for study/project/etc time. But I was lead programmer on a critical system by then (including being on-call) and was my department's de facto liason to the computing center, so I got little friction about it.
- mcny 7y ago
  I think asking for a doctor's note for sick leave ought to be illegal. Doctors have got better things to do!
  - ci5er 7y ago
    Maybe they do, but in the US FFS re-imbursement regime, it's what they do. That said - it is still ridiculous simply because the doctor can't do anything about whatever I might be most commonly sick for (migraine, flu, bad cold, bad seasonal allergy). I'll happily go to the doctor when I have a broken leg or a heart attack, but I'd prefer to stay home and sleep in a dark room and drink water when I have the flu...
pnutjam 7y ago
Unfortunately, in my experience, denying a raise is the standard.

by lkey 7y ago

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

capex 7y ago

I come to HN for comments like this.

WalterBright 7y ago

Fair enough, I agree he was being passive aggressive, but on the other hand, if someone is doing something that has the appearance of impropriety, it's a good idea to proactively bring it up with the boss to head off the suspicions.

CPLX 7y ago
There’s not a fucking thing that’s even slightly improper about taking your allotted PTO days.
- WalterBright 7y ago
  It is improper to take sick leave if you're not sick. It wouldn't be improper if it is labeled PTO. I.e. it depends on how the policy is written.
  - sharkweek 7y ago
    Define sick. Contagious cold? A rough day with anxiety/depression? Struggling with the side effects of a new medicine? Hung over from a night of partying? If the company’s policy is 10 days, then there is zero reason to negatively judge an employee for using those days.
    - WalterBright 7y ago
      My father once told me that honor is what separates men from animals, and honor is what you do when nobody is looking. We all get to choose who we are. I was also fortunate to attend a university with an honor system, to the extent that exams weren't even allowed to be proctored. Whether you cheated or not was up to you, nobody would know. I appreciated that system, and have tried to live it long after graduation. I could go on, but it has proved to be more than worthwhile.
      - kranner 7y ago
        The honor system should extend to trusting employee's assessment of them being sick enough not to be able to work. No, we don't all get to choose who we are. People don't choose to have depression, or <<insert any chronic illness>>
        SamReidHughes 7y ago
        Not when they get sick every year the last week of December.
        jogjayr 7y ago
        That would be a valid reason to ask for a doctor's note. But even then I'd only do it if their absence is negatively impacting productivity and they're really needed at work. Or if there is something else in their performance I was concerned about. Otherwise a lot of offices are basically empty at that time, so who cares? As long as they're not coming to work when they're actually sick so they can hoard sick days, does it matter?
JustSomeNobody 7y ago
So she was given 10 days sick per year but she isn’t allowed to take all 10 without being up to no good?
chrsstrm 7y ago
What does "improper" mean and who gets to decide what actions are improper? Paid days are paid days and just because they have a certain name doesn't change a thing. Has anyone ever been accused of faking a vacation? Of course not, because that would be ridiculous. But since sick days are called sick days all of a sudden you need to prove you're bedridden or else face consequences? That's absurd. Treat your employees like adults.
- zdragnar 7y ago
  Sick days and vacation days typically have different notification requirements- in most places that had them I've worked at, it was 2 weeks for vacation and asap for sick leave. Vacation time could be denied if, say, the job involved time sensitive equipment or safety related tasks (I.e. nursing) and others had already requested the time off. Abusing sick leave- depending on the job- has very real consequences for your coworkers and company, if someone absolutely has to pick up your slack.
  - chrsstrm 7y ago
    So do those consequences you mention suddenly disappear if you're _actually_ sick? The fixation on "abuse" and that it can be easily determined doesn't make sense.
    - zdragnar 7y ago
      No, the consequences don't disappear. But, if you're in a position where when there's a difference in notice required for planned (vacation) and unplanned (sick) time off, and you take sick time off for vacation, you're effectively creating an unnecessary disruption. Maybe the manager has to scramble to find someone willing to come in on short notice. Maybe a temp staffer has to be hired in from an agency. Maybe that's not feasible, and someone has to work a double shift. Depends entirely on the job. If it doesn't matter, then the company shouldn't be distinguishing between vacation and sick time off anyway. If it does matter, then personally I wouldn't want to work with someone who would do that.
  - jschwartzi 7y ago
lkey 7y ago
Have you ever been managed by a passive-aggressive person? I haven't personally, but I know many people who have been, and the stain they leave on a team lasts years. Your implication here is that it the the subordinate's job to read the mind of management. She must know what is 'proper' in her manager's mind outside of the explicit rules of the job. Management, however, is allowed to read her state of mind incorrectly and adjust her pay accordingly. Obviously power imbalances like this exist everywhere, and it's wise to be proactive and careful, but that doesn't mean we should hold up examples like these as just or reasonable outcomes.

Fomite 7y ago

This was my immediate thought: "I bet she's sick for more than 10 days a year". But who knows. Maybe one of his employees trying to work through being sick will come in and give him norovirus. A man can hope.

mcny 7y ago
Personally, I think PTO subsuming sick leave ought to be illegal. I've seen multiple people with bright, red noses in the office unable to function much but won't go home because they can't afford to take the day off and they already have plans to take PTO two months out. Why should I have to risk getting the flu because of this nonsense?
- anon314134314 7y ago
  In Sweden at least, it ("PTO subsuming sick leave") is illegal. Vacation days (of which minimum is 25 for full time employees, but often 30 or more) are a completely separate thing from sick days. When you're sick, you're sick. The employer pays for the first 14 days (minus a deduction of a fifth of a average week's pay and 20% per day) and the state pays after that. Those 14 days are per incident, not per year, and being sick is not a valid reason for letting someone go. If you happen to be sick during your vacation, that too counts as sick days and not vacation days. All of this is by law.
- c0vfefe 7y ago
  I find int helpful for companies to convert unused sick time into vacation time at a rate like 2/3. This provides less incentive for faking sick.
  - Fomite 7y ago
    Alternately, it incentivizes coming in sick and making your co-workers sick. As an epidemiologist, I hate policies that allow sick days to be converted into something of value, or that put's restrictions in them.
    - 7y ago

DrScump 7y ago

My first programming job was for a defense contractor. There was no PTO concept, just vacation (2 whole weeks a year) and sick leave (12 days a year). Unused sick leave accrued indefinitely but was not usable in any other way. I was putting myself through University and still had about 2.5 years of work. I was taking 12-13 units at night year round. So, there were times when I'd use a sick day for study/project/etc time. But I was lead programmer on a critical system by then (including being on-call) and was my department's de facto liason to the computing center, so I got little friction about it.

mcny 7y ago
I think asking for a doctor's note for sick leave ought to be illegal. Doctors have got better things to do!
- ci5er 7y ago
  Maybe they do, but in the US FFS re-imbursement regime, it's what they do. That said - it is still ridiculous simply because the doctor can't do anything about whatever I might be most commonly sick for (migraine, flu, bad cold, bad seasonal allergy). I'll happily go to the doctor when I have a broken leg or a heart attack, but I'd prefer to stay home and sleep in a dark room and drink water when I have the flu...

pnutjam 7y ago

Unfortunately, in my experience, denying a raise is the standard.