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Going to get downvoted for this, but: As time (t) => infinity, social mobility => 0 in any society that has a highly mobile social system. Those who are inher

Going to get downvoted for this, but: As time (t) => infinity, social mobility => 0 in any society that has a highly mobile social system. Those who are inherently predisposed to wealth and power and up in positions of wealth and power, and so do their children. As time goes on, the randomness of poor life environments gets washed out, and peoples children end up where they should (in the destiny sense). If we acknowledge that evolution is a real thing, then we should acknowledge that abilities and skill sets for moving up in society are genetic. Believeing in evolution without believing that peoples personalities and abilities are predetermined is illogical and nonsensical. We can keep playing the shell game of why things might be the opposite, but to me it seems really silly. Let's all run around concocting all sorts of theories about society and societal structure to hide the inconvenient and humiliating truth. In saying this, I am saying nothing about welfare, who should get it and why, because I do believe in strong welfare systems. I believe in equal opportunity, I just dont believe in mass constructed and distributed veils.

HarryHirsch 7y ago
In less words: this is the just-world theory. If this is true, why have chemists' earnings dropped so precipitiously following the 2008 recession? Their genetic makeup hasn't changed. What gives?!
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- codingslave 7y ago
  Who said the chemist was ever that valuable except for a small period in time? Maybe his children will make better choices
jdm2212 7y ago
To paraphrase Keynes: as time (t) => infinity, we're all dead. We don't live our lives in a society at the end of the long run, we live our lives in a society that exists here and now. Social mobility might end up at zero in a thousand years (or ten thousand years, or a hundred thousand years) but here and now we can make real people's lives better.
User23 7y ago
Amusingly, Raj Chetty himself has excellent genetics and inherited his ability. He is from an extremely high achieving family as the article states: "In 1962, Anbu married Veerappa Chetty, a brilliant man from Tamil Nadu whose mother and grandmother had sometimes eaten less food so there would be more for him. Anbu became a doctor and supported her husband while he earned a doctorate in economics. By 1979, when Raj was born in New Delhi, his mother was a pediatrics professor and his father was an economics professor who had served as an adviser to Prime Minister Indira Gandhi" Also from the article, in keeping with tradition, he married a member of his own caste, the Chettiar. Caste is observably a system for implementing a eugenics program, of which Raj Chetty is a prime example of success. And of course he's continuing the tradition: "[his wife] Sundari is a stem-cell biologist"
intopieces 7y ago
>If we acknowledge that evolution is a real thing, Evolution is real but is much too slow in the face of technology, which augments human abilities. > skill sets for moving up in society are genetic. Might be useful here to reference the story of Raj Chetty, whose mother was able to move up in society not merely because of her genetic predisposition, but because someone allowed her to break out of the caste she was born into. Society is neither monolithic nor static, so cannot be explained as being subject purely to genetics.
kjeetgill 7y ago
In case anyone missed this from your comment: > If we acknowledge that evolution is a real thing, then we should acknowledge that abilities and skill sets for moving up in society are genetic. I think that's a big reach. I don't think it's 'self-evident' enough to just put out there like that. Actual evolution involves chance, circumstance, all the time! Genetic bottlenecks, environmental disaster, etc. > Believeing in evolution without believing that peoples personalities and abilities are predetermined is illogical and nonsensical. Just wow. I don't even know where to start with this.
AlexCoventry 7y ago
> Believeing in evolution without believing that peoples personalities and abilities are predetermined is illogical and nonsensical. "Believing in computer hardware without believing that all computer behavior is predetermined is nonsensical."
- codingslave 7y ago
  GPU always beats a CPU for certain calculations and vice versa...
  - AlexCoventry 7y ago
    That has no bearing on your argument that evolution somehow implies that personality and talent are genetically transmitted.
    - codingslave 7y ago
      Of course they're genetically transmitted, what do you think evolution is doing? Just carefully sculpting my nose? No! Its changing the inner structure of my brain. If the contours of my face are heritable, how can people possibly think the contours of my brain are not?? Insanity! How could good behavior be rewarded via evolution? How is personality not entangled in this? Its all propaganda convincing you otherwise.

HarryHirsch 7y ago

In less words: this is the just-world theory. If this is true, why have chemists' earnings dropped so precipitiously following the 2008 recession? Their genetic makeup hasn't changed. What gives?!

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
codingslave 7y ago
Who said the chemist was ever that valuable except for a small period in time? Maybe his children will make better choices

jdm2212 7y ago

To paraphrase Keynes: as time (t) => infinity, we're all dead. We don't live our lives in a society at the end of the long run, we live our lives in a society that exists here and now. Social mobility might end up at zero in a thousand years (or ten thousand years, or a hundred thousand years) but here and now we can make real people's lives better.

User23 7y ago

Amusingly, Raj Chetty himself has excellent genetics and inherited his ability. He is from an extremely high achieving family as the article states: "In 1962, Anbu married Veerappa Chetty, a brilliant man from Tamil Nadu whose mother and grandmother had sometimes eaten less food so there would be more for him. Anbu became a doctor and supported her husband while he earned a doctorate in economics. By 1979, when Raj was born in New Delhi, his mother was a pediatrics professor and his father was an economics professor who had served as an adviser to Prime Minister Indira Gandhi" Also from the article, in keeping with tradition, he married a member of his own caste, the Chettiar. Caste is observably a system for implementing a eugenics program, of which Raj Chetty is a prime example of success. And of course he's continuing the tradition: "[his wife] Sundari is a stem-cell biologist"

intopieces 7y ago

>If we acknowledge that evolution is a real thing, Evolution is real but is much too slow in the face of technology, which augments human abilities. > skill sets for moving up in society are genetic. Might be useful here to reference the story of Raj Chetty, whose mother was able to move up in society not merely because of her genetic predisposition, but because someone allowed her to break out of the caste she was born into. Society is neither monolithic nor static, so cannot be explained as being subject purely to genetics.

kjeetgill 7y ago

In case anyone missed this from your comment: > If we acknowledge that evolution is a real thing, then we should acknowledge that abilities and skill sets for moving up in society are genetic. I think that's a big reach. I don't think it's 'self-evident' enough to just put out there like that. Actual evolution involves chance, circumstance, all the time! Genetic bottlenecks, environmental disaster, etc. > Believeing in evolution without believing that peoples personalities and abilities are predetermined is illogical and nonsensical. Just wow. I don't even know where to start with this.

AlexCoventry 7y ago

> Believeing in evolution without believing that peoples personalities and abilities are predetermined is illogical and nonsensical. "Believing in computer hardware without believing that all computer behavior is predetermined is nonsensical."

codingslave 7y ago
GPU always beats a CPU for certain calculations and vice versa...
- AlexCoventry 7y ago
  That has no bearing on your argument that evolution somehow implies that personality and talent are genetically transmitted.
  - codingslave 7y ago
    Of course they're genetically transmitted, what do you think evolution is doing? Just carefully sculpting my nose? No! Its changing the inner structure of my brain. If the contours of my face are heritable, how can people possibly think the contours of my brain are not?? Insanity! How could good behavior be rewarded via evolution? How is personality not entangled in this? Its all propaganda convincing you otherwise.