16 ms·

I like the author's take on warehouse work, probably because it squares with mine. I went to high school with almost entirely white peers, was going to college

I like the author's take on warehouse work, probably because it squares with mine. I went to high school with almost entirely white peers, was going to college without having to take on any loans, and I got the warehouse job because my dad worked in the offices. I met people who lived in completely different environments and believed completely different things, and it was awesome. One thing I don't agree with: >If Bloodworth believes Amazon is inhumane for looking askance at a worker who asks for a sick day during his first three weeks on the job, then he and I live by different work ethics. If a person's sick, they're sick. If they're faking, they're faking. Days with the company doesn't affect the ethics.

MuffinFlavored 7y ago
Yes and no. I was once in a HR seminar where they welcomed you to the company. When the woman said "we get 19 days PTO a year", you'd be surprised how many people shot up and said "can we start taking them right now?" Before they had even worked a day! PTO days are accurred by hours worked. For me, it's ~6 hours per 15 calendar days. You think you're entitled to PTO having worked 0 hours?...
- jkaplowitz 7y ago
  For vacation days, your point makes sense to me. For sick days, people don't get to choose when they get sick. Someone can just as easily get sick on day 1 or 2 of a job as on day 401 or 402.
  - kbenson 7y ago
    I've seen and heard about many different sick pay schedules because of this. From ones that accrue like vacation and PTO from zero as hours are worked, ro ones where the days are all allocated on the first of the year to be used (I assume pro-rated for mid-year hires) to ones that are a hybrid where some portion of the yearly sick days are allocated at the beginning of the year and the rest are accrued. There are benefits and drawbacks to each, and probably a lot of interesting behavioral nudges in each scheme that affect different types of work in different ways.
  - WalterBright 7y ago
    I once talked to a manager about how he handed out raises. He mentioned one engineer who was sick exactly 10 days out of each year. Coincidentally, the company offered 10 days of paid sick leave a year. He laughed, and said she wasn't fooling anyone, and didn't give her a raise.
    - jacquesm 7y ago
      Here in NL employees get 2 full consecutive years of paid sick leave before you are allowed to terminate the contract.
      - deogeo 7y ago
        I honestly think that's a terrible idea, and that paid sick leave should be paid not by the employer, but from taxes. Which should be raised slightly to cover such a policy. Otherwise, hiring someone presents a gigantic risk for smaller companies. Getting unlucky even once with someone that will use 1-2 years of sick leave (legitimately or not) would be enough to bankrupt them. In general I think making employers pay for a safety net, instead of funding it from taxes paid by those employers, is universally bad. What it does is make employers discriminate against potential hires likely to need that safety net, which makes those in need even worse off.
        Sebb767 7y ago
        I like the way it's handled in Germany: Your employer is on the hook for 6 weeks, after that insurance takes over. Cases like being sick for the same reason again are covered as well. And the employer may demand a signed statement from a special doctor if he suspects cheating (this will only say wether the person may work, no details). It could however be that he's talking about firing the person, in which case it's pretty hard in Germany as well. As far as I know early retirement or a termination from the employee are pretty much the only way. Social security mitigates this risk, however, and the protections are lower for part time/student jobs, so hiring is not made too risky.
        Retric 7y ago
  - Kye 7y ago
    A new environment with exciting new microorganisms seems especially likely to cause this.
- throwawayjava 7y ago
  Seriously? That's the first/only question I ask about vacation policy because it's usually the only detail that isn't included in the first draft of the offer letter. Of course, I also ask before signing the contract. PTO is a significant part of your total compensation. Not clarifying how accrual works is just irresponsible. I honestly don't see how this is any different from asking about other time-based things, such as: - whether your salary is paid every other week or at the end of the month. - when your signing bonus is paid and how long you have to stay to keep it. - when your stock units are granted and how long you have to stay to keep it. - when the company's 401(k) contribution will hit your account. All of which you should definitely be asking... and preferably before accepting the position.
  - chasd00 7y ago
    " Of course, I also ask before signing the contract." I can't stress enough how important that is. You better know what you're signing.
  - JetezLeLogin 7y ago
    "How does it accrue?" might be a better way of asking than "Can we start taking it right now?"
    - lonelappde 7y ago
      It's a warehouse job, not the PR department. Maybe pay a little better if you expect employees with refined diplomatic skills.
      - JetezLeLogin 7y ago
        I have absolutely no skin in this game.
    - Aloha 7y ago
      The worst place I was at treating vacation as if it was granted (it expired at the end of the year) but actually accrued it to you
- fzeroracer 7y ago
  You're making a few massive assumptions here. The first is that PTO is accrued by hours worked. This is not the case everywhere, some places refresh your PTO allowances at the start of the year and some will give you partial PTO when you start working. The second is you assume that they, literally, want to take it right now. They might want to start making plans, or they might've been hired close to a holiday etc. Also the way you phrase it as 'entitled' is worrying, because it's a two way street. I signed an offer letter because I felt working at X company would be beneficial for me. If a company is giving me PTO, then I'm going to use that PTO and I want to know when and what restrictions there may be. I'm owed whatever the company decided to offer me during the process of interviewing and recruitment.
- joe5150 7y ago
  entitled? PTO is part of my compensation, of course I'm entitled to it.
  - lotsofpulp 7y ago
    As MuffinFlavored wrote, not unless it is accrued.
    - NotSammyHagar 7y ago
      some companies let you take your 3 weeks off in a calendar year so you can actually start taking them your second day.
- goldcd 7y ago
  PTO is a very strange concept for much of the world. I'm in the UK and get work full time and get 25 days holiday to take, plus the national/bank holidays. If I'm sick I take a sick day. If I take a significant number of sick days, I'll be asked to produce a note from my doctor confirming that I'm sick. If I get really sick, then myself and my employer both contribute to insurance that (I think, not checked for a while) gives me 75% of my salary until I'm well. It's not quite a socialist paradise - but the general idea is that if you're an employee, there is a collective system that doesn't punish you for being ill. Vacation days are for vacation. I do work for an international company, so was interested to note on my portal (where I can check my benefits) - a new metric of "15 unused sick-days" had appeared... ..maybe my hay-fever is more debilitating that I thought...
  - chasd00 7y ago
    typically there's a sick and vacation subset for "PTO". like you get 2 weeks vacation and a week of sick days. Sometimes they're interchangeable sometimes not. It all depends on where you work. My employer only deals in vacation days, sick days are basically "don't abuse it and we don't care" similar to your setup.
    - wirrbel 7y ago
      here in Germany that's the legal framework, i.e. you have a balance of vacation days (I get like 3 every month when starting a new contract, and after a year I get the whole allowance of vacation days in january). Sick days are sick days and are not taken from that balance, I think a doctor's not is required after about 3 days of sickness, some employers demand it on the first day. Also: With a doctor's note, you can also reclaim vacation days when you have been sick. So, suppose you took one week vacation, but you contract let's say pneumonia the week before, you get a doctor's note on your sickness, and neither go to work or on vacation but can reschedule these vacation days. I do think its a fair system overall, employers are typically large enough to buffer the risks, and I think there is a difference between being employed and being contracted.
  - markdown 7y ago
    We have this in Fiji, plus a new one that started this year called Family Care Leave. Family Care Leave is 5 days/yr you can take off to care for a family member. There's still some uncertainty about how it can be used... some employers don't require a sick sheet (of your family member), so you could use it to support a child on a day they're playing a rugby match, or when you can't get a babysitter. Other employers require you to present your family members' sick sheet.
- YZF 7y ago
  What if you need to take some time off? Your brother is getting married? Or you just haven't had a vacation in a while? You take your PTO now, and you don't take it later. If you leave the company before that PTO accrued it's taken off your salary. Yes! you can take vacation before it's accrued in any normal workplace.
  - jax2Brian 7y ago
    One of the surprises I had when I was first hired and introduced to the benefits package I would be receiving was the fact that not only would I be receiving Paid Time Off (PTO ) but that I'd also receive a paid Vacation time on top of it all. This was a surprise b/c usually you either receive Vacation time that you gain a certain amount of allotted time from the start or you get PTO, or time that accrues over each work week. Here at Amazon we receive both on the first day of employment. Although they both are accrued over time, each Amazon employee starts off with 10 hrs of PTO each year while it will begin to accrue on top of that. - BrianD.J, Amazon FC Ambassador
- lsllc 7y ago
  Did you know that 40% of sick days are on a Monday or Friday!
belorn 7y ago
I would not stay at a company that expect me to work next to people who are sick. The only exception is if I worked at a hospital and then I would enter the job knowing the risk and also expect the extra vaccination and procedures which is involved when you work with people that are sick. If people feel they want points for work ethics, do bookkeeping or other stay-at-home activity. Answer emails. Spreading a virus and infecting people is unethical and a company policy that demand that of employees is indeed inhumane. It is also counter-productive which is why only companies that can easily and cheaply find replacement employees can do it.

MuffinFlavored 7y ago

Yes and no. I was once in a HR seminar where they welcomed you to the company. When the woman said "we get 19 days PTO a year", you'd be surprised how many people shot up and said "can we start taking them right now?" Before they had even worked a day! PTO days are accurred by hours worked. For me, it's ~6 hours per 15 calendar days. You think you're entitled to PTO having worked 0 hours?...

jkaplowitz 7y ago
For vacation days, your point makes sense to me. For sick days, people don't get to choose when they get sick. Someone can just as easily get sick on day 1 or 2 of a job as on day 401 or 402.
- kbenson 7y ago
  I've seen and heard about many different sick pay schedules because of this. From ones that accrue like vacation and PTO from zero as hours are worked, ro ones where the days are all allocated on the first of the year to be used (I assume pro-rated for mid-year hires) to ones that are a hybrid where some portion of the yearly sick days are allocated at the beginning of the year and the rest are accrued. There are benefits and drawbacks to each, and probably a lot of interesting behavioral nudges in each scheme that affect different types of work in different ways.
- WalterBright 7y ago
  I once talked to a manager about how he handed out raises. He mentioned one engineer who was sick exactly 10 days out of each year. Coincidentally, the company offered 10 days of paid sick leave a year. He laughed, and said she wasn't fooling anyone, and didn't give her a raise.
  - jacquesm 7y ago
    Here in NL employees get 2 full consecutive years of paid sick leave before you are allowed to terminate the contract.
    - deogeo 7y ago
      I honestly think that's a terrible idea, and that paid sick leave should be paid not by the employer, but from taxes. Which should be raised slightly to cover such a policy. Otherwise, hiring someone presents a gigantic risk for smaller companies. Getting unlucky even once with someone that will use 1-2 years of sick leave (legitimately or not) would be enough to bankrupt them. In general I think making employers pay for a safety net, instead of funding it from taxes paid by those employers, is universally bad. What it does is make employers discriminate against potential hires likely to need that safety net, which makes those in need even worse off.
      - Sebb767 7y ago
        I like the way it's handled in Germany: Your employer is on the hook for 6 weeks, after that insurance takes over. Cases like being sick for the same reason again are covered as well. And the employer may demand a signed statement from a special doctor if he suspects cheating (this will only say wether the person may work, no details). It could however be that he's talking about firing the person, in which case it's pretty hard in Germany as well. As far as I know early retirement or a termination from the employee are pretty much the only way. Social security mitigates this risk, however, and the protections are lower for part time/student jobs, so hiring is not made too risky.
      - Retric 7y ago
- Kye 7y ago
  A new environment with exciting new microorganisms seems especially likely to cause this.
throwawayjava 7y ago
Seriously? That's the first/only question I ask about vacation policy because it's usually the only detail that isn't included in the first draft of the offer letter. Of course, I also ask before signing the contract. PTO is a significant part of your total compensation. Not clarifying how accrual works is just irresponsible. I honestly don't see how this is any different from asking about other time-based things, such as: - whether your salary is paid every other week or at the end of the month. - when your signing bonus is paid and how long you have to stay to keep it. - when your stock units are granted and how long you have to stay to keep it. - when the company's 401(k) contribution will hit your account. All of which you should definitely be asking... and preferably before accepting the position.
- chasd00 7y ago
  " Of course, I also ask before signing the contract." I can't stress enough how important that is. You better know what you're signing.
- JetezLeLogin 7y ago
  "How does it accrue?" might be a better way of asking than "Can we start taking it right now?"
  - lonelappde 7y ago
    It's a warehouse job, not the PR department. Maybe pay a little better if you expect employees with refined diplomatic skills.
    - JetezLeLogin 7y ago
      I have absolutely no skin in this game.
  - Aloha 7y ago
    The worst place I was at treating vacation as if it was granted (it expired at the end of the year) but actually accrued it to you
fzeroracer 7y ago
You're making a few massive assumptions here. The first is that PTO is accrued by hours worked. This is not the case everywhere, some places refresh your PTO allowances at the start of the year and some will give you partial PTO when you start working. The second is you assume that they, literally, want to take it right now. They might want to start making plans, or they might've been hired close to a holiday etc. Also the way you phrase it as 'entitled' is worrying, because it's a two way street. I signed an offer letter because I felt working at X company would be beneficial for me. If a company is giving me PTO, then I'm going to use that PTO and I want to know when and what restrictions there may be. I'm owed whatever the company decided to offer me during the process of interviewing and recruitment.
joe5150 7y ago
entitled? PTO is part of my compensation, of course I'm entitled to it.
- lotsofpulp 7y ago
  As MuffinFlavored wrote, not unless it is accrued.
  - NotSammyHagar 7y ago
    some companies let you take your 3 weeks off in a calendar year so you can actually start taking them your second day.
goldcd 7y ago
PTO is a very strange concept for much of the world. I'm in the UK and get work full time and get 25 days holiday to take, plus the national/bank holidays. If I'm sick I take a sick day. If I take a significant number of sick days, I'll be asked to produce a note from my doctor confirming that I'm sick. If I get really sick, then myself and my employer both contribute to insurance that (I think, not checked for a while) gives me 75% of my salary until I'm well. It's not quite a socialist paradise - but the general idea is that if you're an employee, there is a collective system that doesn't punish you for being ill. Vacation days are for vacation. I do work for an international company, so was interested to note on my portal (where I can check my benefits) - a new metric of "15 unused sick-days" had appeared... ..maybe my hay-fever is more debilitating that I thought...
- chasd00 7y ago
  typically there's a sick and vacation subset for "PTO". like you get 2 weeks vacation and a week of sick days. Sometimes they're interchangeable sometimes not. It all depends on where you work. My employer only deals in vacation days, sick days are basically "don't abuse it and we don't care" similar to your setup.
  - wirrbel 7y ago
    here in Germany that's the legal framework, i.e. you have a balance of vacation days (I get like 3 every month when starting a new contract, and after a year I get the whole allowance of vacation days in january). Sick days are sick days and are not taken from that balance, I think a doctor's not is required after about 3 days of sickness, some employers demand it on the first day. Also: With a doctor's note, you can also reclaim vacation days when you have been sick. So, suppose you took one week vacation, but you contract let's say pneumonia the week before, you get a doctor's note on your sickness, and neither go to work or on vacation but can reschedule these vacation days. I do think its a fair system overall, employers are typically large enough to buffer the risks, and I think there is a difference between being employed and being contracted.
- markdown 7y ago
  We have this in Fiji, plus a new one that started this year called Family Care Leave. Family Care Leave is 5 days/yr you can take off to care for a family member. There's still some uncertainty about how it can be used... some employers don't require a sick sheet (of your family member), so you could use it to support a child on a day they're playing a rugby match, or when you can't get a babysitter. Other employers require you to present your family members' sick sheet.
YZF 7y ago
What if you need to take some time off? Your brother is getting married? Or you just haven't had a vacation in a while? You take your PTO now, and you don't take it later. If you leave the company before that PTO accrued it's taken off your salary. Yes! you can take vacation before it's accrued in any normal workplace.
- jax2Brian 7y ago
  One of the surprises I had when I was first hired and introduced to the benefits package I would be receiving was the fact that not only would I be receiving Paid Time Off (PTO ) but that I'd also receive a paid Vacation time on top of it all. This was a surprise b/c usually you either receive Vacation time that you gain a certain amount of allotted time from the start or you get PTO, or time that accrues over each work week. Here at Amazon we receive both on the first day of employment. Although they both are accrued over time, each Amazon employee starts off with 10 hrs of PTO each year while it will begin to accrue on top of that. - BrianD.J, Amazon FC Ambassador
lsllc 7y ago
Did you know that 40% of sick days are on a Monday or Friday!

belorn 7y ago

I would not stay at a company that expect me to work next to people who are sick. The only exception is if I worked at a hospital and then I would enter the job knowing the risk and also expect the extra vaccination and procedures which is involved when you work with people that are sick. If people feel they want points for work ethics, do bookkeeping or other stay-at-home activity. Answer emails. Spreading a virus and infecting people is unethical and a company policy that demand that of employees is indeed inhumane. It is also counter-productive which is why only companies that can easily and cheaply find replacement employees can do it.