3 ms·

As David Runciman has pointed out in his book How Democracy Ends and on the Talking Politics podcast - https://www.talkingpoliticspodcast.com/blog/2017/71-how-d

As David Runciman has pointed out in his book How Democracy Ends and on the Talking Politics podcast - https://www.talkingpoliticspodcast.com/blog/2017/71-how-democracy-ends https://www.talkingpoliticspodcast.com/blog/2017/71-how-demo... - if you could only ask one question of someone you'd never met before, which would give you the best possibility of guessing whether they'd voted for Brexit, it would be whether they went to university (Remain) or not (Leave). He argues that, in the UK at least, there's a bubble of professional politicians who all went to university and were completely blindsided by the result of the Brexit referendum because they knew almost no-one who'd consider (or admit to) voting Leave. Also John Lanchester's compelling (to me) argument that the bailing out of the banks after the crash (which was, on balance, right) followed quickly by austerity (where everyone else unfairly picked up the cheque for the bailout) lead directly to Brexit and Trump, because people were (to paraphrase the film Network) "mad as hell, and not going to take this anymore!" https://www.lrb.co.uk/v40/n13/john-lanchester/after-the-fall https://www.lrb.co.uk/v40/n13/john-lanchester/after-the-fall It really does feel that the university crowd (which I'm a part of) have completely detached from the lives of large chunks of the rest of the country. I get that this account of Amazon workplaces may be rose-tinted. Perhaps this facility is run by a good manager, and others aren't. But as it says, for this to be a specific kind of evil it needs to be compared to all other jobs in a similar environment. There are things that can be made better, sure, as there always are. But I find quite a bit of this middle-class hand-wringing tricky because it always seems to be well-paid journalists going "undercover". They'd probably find any manual labour degrading when compared to their comfortable Aeron chairs and plate-glass offices.

awkward 7y ago
I think when it comes down to it labor conditions are in the details, and it depends on the work. External pressure can help workers get a better deal, but often, especially if there is a collective bargaining agreement in place, coverage that's more salacious than accurate can harm their ability to negotiate. It's like the guy who had the made up story about Foxconn on NPR, with whole bits about how they were flagrantly violating child labor law. It doesn't mean conditions at Foxconn are good, but the lack of accuracy means the company can't and won't make concessions where there's a real problem.
brownbat 7y ago
That University disconnect is powerful and cuts across issues. I remember hearing a freshman lawmaker talk about transitioning from other fields into politics. The first thing campaign advisers did was cut all references to advanced degrees from her website, replacing them with stories about how her grandfather was a farmer. 30 Rock's Duffy--a caricature of someone unrelatable--described his politics as "Fiscal liberal, social conservative" in one throwaway joke.[0] I thought it was pretty clever at the time, but the college-educated writers of 30 Rock and I probably underestimated the relatability of Duffy's position. I read a political attitudes survey a few years later that contrasted beliefs of constituents with representatives. It found that Republican constituencies are far more sympathetic to large government programs and redistribution than their reps, and Democratic constituencies are far more supportive of morality-based restrictions and social regulations than their reps would suggest. Maybe most of the population is far more like Duffy, but education operates as a filter, making you either passionate about fiscal responsibility from econ classes, or passionate about social freedom and tolerance from liberal arts classes, or some mix of both. That is likely to cause some friction. [0] https://www.reddit.com/r/30ROCK/comments/88ztl8/dennis_duffys_political_views/ https://www.reddit.com/r/30ROCK/comments/88ztl8/dennis_duffy... He naturally meant liberal in the American sense. [1] I've done a quick review of political attitudes lit and sadly can't find the study at the moment, will update if I find it and would welcome anyone pointing me the right direction if this sounds familiar.
- SmirkingRevenge 7y ago
  > I read a political attitudes survey a few years later that contrasted beliefs of constituents with representatives. It found that Republican constituencies are far more sympathetic to large government programs and redistribution than their reps, and Democratic constituencies are far more supportive of morality-based restrictions and social regulations than their reps would suggest. > Maybe most of the population is far more like Duffy, but education operates as a filter, making you either passionate about fiscal responsibility from econ classes, or passionate about social freedom and tolerance from liberal arts classes, or some mix of both. That reminds me of the research this group is doing/has done, which is somewhat related to your points here. The basic upshot is that most people really are moderate, and share more views in common than we tend to appreciate. https://perceptiongap.us/ https://perceptiongap.us/ Disclaimer: I've only skimmed that stuff, so I don't vouch for it, but its interesting
TheOtherHobbes 7y ago
Firstly, this is factually incorrect. The biggest predictor was age, not education. Up to age 24, there was a huge preference for Remain. Up to age 35 there was a slightly smaller but still significant preference. Over 65 the preference swung the other way. Education was significant, but not decisive. But in fact the dirty secret of all politics is that democracy is decided almost entirely by the C2 political class. Everyone else votes fairly predictably. But with the right rhetoric, C2s can be persuaded to vote against the status quo - whatever that is. The university educated class is most accurately represented by the B class, who tend to lean progressive and are more likely support pro-worker politics than other classes. The A class - the true elite who own things - leans reactionary, and uses media ownership to propagate grudge and paranoia rhetoric against convenient victims (unions, foreigners, immigrants, non-conformists of more minor kinds) to herd the C2s into voting against their immediate interests. That's exactly what happened with both Trump and the Brexit vote - although the Trump vote was complicated by the fact that Clinton ran a spectacularly ineffectual and tone deaf campaign which alienated C2s who might otherwise have supported her, and who would almost certainly have supported Sanders. But other than that - the same class that created austerity as an institutionally abusive political dogma used its media leverage to channel anger away from itself and towards perennially reliable by-the-numbers xenophobia. It's not a stretch to suggest Amazon benefits from the same pattern, albeit in a less partisan way. Bezos has made it clear he's interested in efficiency, and not in the working conditions in Amazon's warehouses. Amazon as a company could easily afford to run an operation that's famous for being a world leader in humane employment - but it doesn't, because it chooses not to.
- frereubu 7y ago
  I'm willing to be corrected on best predictor of Brexit voting, but even if that's the case, as you say, education was a significant factor, and I think contributed hugely to the blindness of the political class. Your analysis of the various classes (which has a whole other discussion attached to it) comes across as pretty patronising. The idea that the result was caused by "herding" C2s uses metaphors of cattle that are pretty demeaning, as if Bs aren't subject to similar forces with different aesthetics. It also negates the idea that they have a real beef with the establishment, which I think they do. They may be voting against their own interests on the issue of Brexit, but in the service of a big, satisfying "f__k you" to the people who've shafted them in the name of "balancing the books" while bailing out their City mates. I'd feel pretty aggrieved if I saw City boys swanking around while my right to incapacity benefit was challenged again and again. I agree wholeheartedly with your last sentence. But I can't think of many organisations who would meet that standard, and I have direct experience of white-collar jobs that are more soul-destroying than the work described in the linked article. Even Amnesty International was hemorrhaging staff because of a toxic work environment while they were running that "protect the human" campaign. What I found useful about this article was that it gave a sense of perspective from someone who does this kind of work for a living. Did those journalists interview anyone like this? (Not a rhetorical question - I haven't read the book by Bloodworth, but I'm skeptical given the tone of the excerpts I've read that it would fit his narrative.)
selimthegrim 7y ago
I thought bringing back the death penalty was a stronger correlate than university education? (Also I wonder if David is related to Steven Runciman)

awkward 7y ago

I think when it comes down to it labor conditions are in the details, and it depends on the work. External pressure can help workers get a better deal, but often, especially if there is a collective bargaining agreement in place, coverage that's more salacious than accurate can harm their ability to negotiate. It's like the guy who had the made up story about Foxconn on NPR, with whole bits about how they were flagrantly violating child labor law. It doesn't mean conditions at Foxconn are good, but the lack of accuracy means the company can't and won't make concessions where there's a real problem.

brownbat 7y ago

That University disconnect is powerful and cuts across issues. I remember hearing a freshman lawmaker talk about transitioning from other fields into politics. The first thing campaign advisers did was cut all references to advanced degrees from her website, replacing them with stories about how her grandfather was a farmer. 30 Rock's Duffy--a caricature of someone unrelatable--described his politics as "Fiscal liberal, social conservative" in one throwaway joke.[0] I thought it was pretty clever at the time, but the college-educated writers of 30 Rock and I probably underestimated the relatability of Duffy's position. I read a political attitudes survey a few years later that contrasted beliefs of constituents with representatives. It found that Republican constituencies are far more sympathetic to large government programs and redistribution than their reps, and Democratic constituencies are far more supportive of morality-based restrictions and social regulations than their reps would suggest. Maybe most of the population is far more like Duffy, but education operates as a filter, making you either passionate about fiscal responsibility from econ classes, or passionate about social freedom and tolerance from liberal arts classes, or some mix of both. That is likely to cause some friction. [0] https://www.reddit.com/r/30ROCK/comments/88ztl8/dennis_duffys_political_views/ https://www.reddit.com/r/30ROCK/comments/88ztl8/dennis_duffy... He naturally meant liberal in the American sense. [1] I've done a quick review of political attitudes lit and sadly can't find the study at the moment, will update if I find it and would welcome anyone pointing me the right direction if this sounds familiar.

SmirkingRevenge 7y ago
> I read a political attitudes survey a few years later that contrasted beliefs of constituents with representatives. It found that Republican constituencies are far more sympathetic to large government programs and redistribution than their reps, and Democratic constituencies are far more supportive of morality-based restrictions and social regulations than their reps would suggest. > Maybe most of the population is far more like Duffy, but education operates as a filter, making you either passionate about fiscal responsibility from econ classes, or passionate about social freedom and tolerance from liberal arts classes, or some mix of both. That reminds me of the research this group is doing/has done, which is somewhat related to your points here. The basic upshot is that most people really are moderate, and share more views in common than we tend to appreciate. https://perceptiongap.us/ https://perceptiongap.us/ Disclaimer: I've only skimmed that stuff, so I don't vouch for it, but its interesting

TheOtherHobbes 7y ago

Firstly, this is factually incorrect. The biggest predictor was age, not education. Up to age 24, there was a huge preference for Remain. Up to age 35 there was a slightly smaller but still significant preference. Over 65 the preference swung the other way. Education was significant, but not decisive. But in fact the dirty secret of all politics is that democracy is decided almost entirely by the C2 political class. Everyone else votes fairly predictably. But with the right rhetoric, C2s can be persuaded to vote against the status quo - whatever that is. The university educated class is most accurately represented by the B class, who tend to lean progressive and are more likely support pro-worker politics than other classes. The A class - the true elite who own things - leans reactionary, and uses media ownership to propagate grudge and paranoia rhetoric against convenient victims (unions, foreigners, immigrants, non-conformists of more minor kinds) to herd the C2s into voting against their immediate interests. That's exactly what happened with both Trump and the Brexit vote - although the Trump vote was complicated by the fact that Clinton ran a spectacularly ineffectual and tone deaf campaign which alienated C2s who might otherwise have supported her, and who would almost certainly have supported Sanders. But other than that - the same class that created austerity as an institutionally abusive political dogma used its media leverage to channel anger away from itself and towards perennially reliable by-the-numbers xenophobia. It's not a stretch to suggest Amazon benefits from the same pattern, albeit in a less partisan way. Bezos has made it clear he's interested in efficiency, and not in the working conditions in Amazon's warehouses. Amazon as a company could easily afford to run an operation that's famous for being a world leader in humane employment - but it doesn't, because it chooses not to.

frereubu 7y ago
I'm willing to be corrected on best predictor of Brexit voting, but even if that's the case, as you say, education was a significant factor, and I think contributed hugely to the blindness of the political class. Your analysis of the various classes (which has a whole other discussion attached to it) comes across as pretty patronising. The idea that the result was caused by "herding" C2s uses metaphors of cattle that are pretty demeaning, as if Bs aren't subject to similar forces with different aesthetics. It also negates the idea that they have a real beef with the establishment, which I think they do. They may be voting against their own interests on the issue of Brexit, but in the service of a big, satisfying "f__k you" to the people who've shafted them in the name of "balancing the books" while bailing out their City mates. I'd feel pretty aggrieved if I saw City boys swanking around while my right to incapacity benefit was challenged again and again. I agree wholeheartedly with your last sentence. But I can't think of many organisations who would meet that standard, and I have direct experience of white-collar jobs that are more soul-destroying than the work described in the linked article. Even Amnesty International was hemorrhaging staff because of a toxic work environment while they were running that "protect the human" campaign. What I found useful about this article was that it gave a sense of perspective from someone who does this kind of work for a living. Did those journalists interview anyone like this? (Not a rhetorical question - I haven't read the book by Bloodworth, but I'm skeptical given the tone of the excerpts I've read that it would fit his narrative.)

selimthegrim 7y ago

I thought bringing back the death penalty was a stronger correlate than university education? (Also I wonder if David is related to Steven Runciman)