4 ms·

"fines associated with cars that fall more heavily on poorer people" Examples? If its a case of Ferraris don't need to pay to park, where other cars get ticke

"fines associated with cars that fall more heavily on poorer people" Examples? If its a case of Ferraris don't need to pay to park, where other cars get ticketed, fair enough. If its just a case of poor people being more likely to speed, in which case that doesn't seem so reasonable to call out. I'm not even sure if fines in general should be counted as a cost of ownership. You can just pay to park, you don't have to speed, in general it seems like a cost of rule breaking to me. I'm not from the US, so the request for examples was genuine.

pmichaud 7y ago
I imagine the person you're asking was talking about fines being regressive in the sense that if a wealthy person receives a $100 fine for speeding or parking violations, it's basically nothing, but the same $100 represents a day or 2 of labor for the working poor and could be ruinous if they are already barely able to pay their bills.
Edmond 7y ago
We can start with the fact that fines are not means tested so a speeding ticket for someone driving x miles over the speed limit is the same for a Ferrari driver (likely a rich person) and someone who would having trouble covering a $400 expense (a poor person)...in fact it is known that this type of situation often has a cascading effect on poorer people...lose your license/registration because you can't pay the fine, lose your job because you can't get to work, become even poorer.... The real problem is that car ownership is more or less mandatory in America because of the lack of viable alternative in most cases. Those fines I speak of? I have a lot experience with...in fact for most of my late teens and early 20s I spent thousands in fines for various infractions. Not everyone manages to climbed out of those holes.
lostlogin 7y ago
Any fine is an example. $40 to someone on the breadline is a problem. While to someone wealthy it’s nothing. There are people who don’t worry about fines due to their wealth, and just avoid situations that would risk their licence.
- FabHK 7y ago
  In Germany, Switzerland, and several other European jurisdictions, Bußgeld/Ordnungsbusse (fines) are distinguished from Geldstrafe (penalty? amercement?). Depending on the gravity of the offence, the law (or court) determines the amount to pay, and it is in units of money for the Bußgeld, but in units of Tagessätze (daily fine) for the Geldstrafe. Now, how much money a Tagessatz corresponds to is determined in a second step based on the income and wealth of the offender. So, for example, a banker in Switzerland that went 114 km/h instead of the allowed 80 and overtook on the right several times was fined 450,000 CHF (around 450,000 USD - yes, half a million). I find that quite sensible. https://www.blick.ch/news/schweiz/zuerich/halsbrecherisches-fahrverhalten-von-schweizer-top-banker-rekordstrafe-fuer-millionenschweren-tesla-ruepel-id8398159.html https://www.blick.ch/news/schweiz/zuerich/halsbrecherisches-...
  - leetcrew 7y ago
    > I find that quite sensible. I guess it depends what you think the purpose of a fine is. personally, I think a fine ought to be a rough estimate for the excess risk you exposed other people to. I don't think a speeding banker exposes society to any more risk than a speeding janitor.
    - jogjayr 7y ago
      > personally, I think a fine ought to be a rough estimate for the excess risk you exposed other people to. Ok, but that's not actually what a fine is for. It's meant to be a deterrent against future offenses, both by the party it's levied against and for others.[1] 1. https://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-procedure/fines.html https://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-procedure/fines.html
      - leetcrew 7y ago
        > The purposes of imposing a criminal fine are to punish the offender, help compensate the state for the offense, and deter any future criminal acts. looks like the source you cited supports both perspectives.
omgtehlion 7y ago
I'm not from the US, but starting from some income threshold you can use dedicated lanes daily and pay in the end of the month. While for most of the populace occasional ticket for the same thing might be a big financial trouble. More "fair" scheme would be fines proportional to your income or vehicle cost, but I have heard of such things only in some European countries.

pmichaud 7y ago

I imagine the person you're asking was talking about fines being regressive in the sense that if a wealthy person receives a $100 fine for speeding or parking violations, it's basically nothing, but the same $100 represents a day or 2 of labor for the working poor and could be ruinous if they are already barely able to pay their bills.

Edmond 7y ago

We can start with the fact that fines are not means tested so a speeding ticket for someone driving x miles over the speed limit is the same for a Ferrari driver (likely a rich person) and someone who would having trouble covering a $400 expense (a poor person)...in fact it is known that this type of situation often has a cascading effect on poorer people...lose your license/registration because you can't pay the fine, lose your job because you can't get to work, become even poorer.... The real problem is that car ownership is more or less mandatory in America because of the lack of viable alternative in most cases. Those fines I speak of? I have a lot experience with...in fact for most of my late teens and early 20s I spent thousands in fines for various infractions. Not everyone manages to climbed out of those holes.

lostlogin 7y ago

Any fine is an example. $40 to someone on the breadline is a problem. While to someone wealthy it’s nothing. There are people who don’t worry about fines due to their wealth, and just avoid situations that would risk their licence.

FabHK 7y ago
In Germany, Switzerland, and several other European jurisdictions, Bußgeld/Ordnungsbusse (fines) are distinguished from Geldstrafe (penalty? amercement?). Depending on the gravity of the offence, the law (or court) determines the amount to pay, and it is in units of money for the Bußgeld, but in units of Tagessätze (daily fine) for the Geldstrafe. Now, how much money a Tagessatz corresponds to is determined in a second step based on the income and wealth of the offender. So, for example, a banker in Switzerland that went 114 km/h instead of the allowed 80 and overtook on the right several times was fined 450,000 CHF (around 450,000 USD - yes, half a million). I find that quite sensible. https://www.blick.ch/news/schweiz/zuerich/halsbrecherisches-fahrverhalten-von-schweizer-top-banker-rekordstrafe-fuer-millionenschweren-tesla-ruepel-id8398159.html https://www.blick.ch/news/schweiz/zuerich/halsbrecherisches-...
- leetcrew 7y ago
  > I find that quite sensible. I guess it depends what you think the purpose of a fine is. personally, I think a fine ought to be a rough estimate for the excess risk you exposed other people to. I don't think a speeding banker exposes society to any more risk than a speeding janitor.
  - jogjayr 7y ago
    > personally, I think a fine ought to be a rough estimate for the excess risk you exposed other people to. Ok, but that's not actually what a fine is for. It's meant to be a deterrent against future offenses, both by the party it's levied against and for others.[1] 1. https://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-procedure/fines.html https://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-procedure/fines.html
    - leetcrew 7y ago
      > The purposes of imposing a criminal fine are to punish the offender, help compensate the state for the offense, and deter any future criminal acts. looks like the source you cited supports both perspectives.

omgtehlion 7y ago

I'm not from the US, but starting from some income threshold you can use dedicated lanes daily and pay in the end of the month. While for most of the populace occasional ticket for the same thing might be a big financial trouble. More "fair" scheme would be fines proportional to your income or vehicle cost, but I have heard of such things only in some European countries.