4 ms·

Exactly. Capitalists who don't want collective bargaining probably shouldn't motivate people to see their strength in numbers. I don't see any mystery in why e

by spodek 7y ago

Exactly. Capitalists who don't want collective bargaining probably shouldn't motivate people to see their strength in numbers. I don't see any mystery in why employees would band together in situations like these. They'd be fools not to.

krapp 7y ago
>I don't see any mystery in why employees would band together in situations like these. They'd be fools not to. If they're Americans, it's because they've been raised to believe that unions are for lazy degenerate communists who don't want to earn an honest living.
- futureastronaut 7y ago
  The northeast and upper midwest are pro-union and people aren't raised to think that way in those places. It's a big country.
  - krapp 7y ago
    Fair enough. There are parts of the country for which it is definitely true, though. I'm part of a number of Amazon employee groups on Facebook and the recent news of strikes by Amazon employees over Prime day was met with almost universal derision there - by FC employees, not even managers or tech workers.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
- SantalBlush 7y ago
  If a businessperson uses all available means to profit, it is smart. If a worker does the same, it is lazy.
  - BuckRogers 7y ago
    That is a good point but wages from labor are not a profit. It’s a trade. Your time and effort for the money. So it’s even worse than you portray. Companies maximizing profits is not a trade that they suffer for. It could simply be theft out of the employee’s pocket, or in the form of harm done to the environment.
- zdragnar 7y ago
  To better understand antipathy towards unions in the US, do a google search for "new york rubber room". Tens of millions of dollars a year spent on salaries for teachers who had to be pulled from classrooms but couldn't be fired. Due to the backlog of arbiters, they sit around doing nothing at all. It's bad for them, bad for the schools, and bad for the public. It's an extreme example, to be sure, but it is also one that had gotten a fair amount of media attention. No-one wants to work hard when they see someone else taking it easy, knowing that their next pay raise is more closely tied to seniority than it is to on the job performance. Another example is the number of states where unions arranged "votes" to force "home health care workers" to unionize. That is, if you are taking care of a family member who recieves certain kinds of disability welfare, you are automatically deemed a union member, and the dues are taken from the welfare payments. It was nothing more than a blatant money grab when it happened where I lived, and I can assure you that these peope got far less from their "representation" than they got in dues, since they were never technically employees in the first place and no bargaining or contact to begin with. Yes, there are better ways that unions can operate. There are some good unions out there. There is also plenty to criticise too, and pretending that they are a universal good isn't helping anyone. Edit: perhaps the biggest complaint is that the unions are too powerful. Even leaving is hard; the New Haven firefighters had to file a lawsuit to stop the former parent union fron sending their members to collections agencies for their dues after they left. https://www.nhregister.com/news/article/New-Haven-firefighters-win-injunction-against-13457174.php https://www.nhregister.com/news/article/New-Haven-firefighte...
  - krapp 7y ago
    Sure, unions can be corrupt and work against the interests of their members, but businesses and lawmakers can also be corrupt and collude to exploit their workers and constituents. Collective action is a necessary counterbalance to the bias in capitalist societies towards the ownership class at the expense of the labor class. I don't think unions are universally good or bad, but they are the reason employees get paid in legal tender rather than company scrip, get weekends off rather than working seven day shifts, and why labor laws even exist. An attitude of antipathy towards unions doesn't offer a better alternative to them, as much as wish businesses and governments could just be left alone to treat labor as they please.

by spodek 7y ago

krapp 7y ago

>I don't see any mystery in why employees would band together in situations like these. They'd be fools not to. If they're Americans, it's because they've been raised to believe that unions are for lazy degenerate communists who don't want to earn an honest living.

futureastronaut 7y ago
The northeast and upper midwest are pro-union and people aren't raised to think that way in those places. It's a big country.
- krapp 7y ago
  Fair enough. There are parts of the country for which it is definitely true, though. I'm part of a number of Amazon employee groups on Facebook and the recent news of strikes by Amazon employees over Prime day was met with almost universal derision there - by FC employees, not even managers or tech workers.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
SantalBlush 7y ago
If a businessperson uses all available means to profit, it is smart. If a worker does the same, it is lazy.
- BuckRogers 7y ago
  That is a good point but wages from labor are not a profit. It’s a trade. Your time and effort for the money. So it’s even worse than you portray. Companies maximizing profits is not a trade that they suffer for. It could simply be theft out of the employee’s pocket, or in the form of harm done to the environment.
zdragnar 7y ago
To better understand antipathy towards unions in the US, do a google search for "new york rubber room". Tens of millions of dollars a year spent on salaries for teachers who had to be pulled from classrooms but couldn't be fired. Due to the backlog of arbiters, they sit around doing nothing at all. It's bad for them, bad for the schools, and bad for the public. It's an extreme example, to be sure, but it is also one that had gotten a fair amount of media attention. No-one wants to work hard when they see someone else taking it easy, knowing that their next pay raise is more closely tied to seniority than it is to on the job performance. Another example is the number of states where unions arranged "votes" to force "home health care workers" to unionize. That is, if you are taking care of a family member who recieves certain kinds of disability welfare, you are automatically deemed a union member, and the dues are taken from the welfare payments. It was nothing more than a blatant money grab when it happened where I lived, and I can assure you that these peope got far less from their "representation" than they got in dues, since they were never technically employees in the first place and no bargaining or contact to begin with. Yes, there are better ways that unions can operate. There are some good unions out there. There is also plenty to criticise too, and pretending that they are a universal good isn't helping anyone. Edit: perhaps the biggest complaint is that the unions are too powerful. Even leaving is hard; the New Haven firefighters had to file a lawsuit to stop the former parent union fron sending their members to collections agencies for their dues after they left. https://www.nhregister.com/news/article/New-Haven-firefighters-win-injunction-against-13457174.php https://www.nhregister.com/news/article/New-Haven-firefighte...
- krapp 7y ago
  Sure, unions can be corrupt and work against the interests of their members, but businesses and lawmakers can also be corrupt and collude to exploit their workers and constituents. Collective action is a necessary counterbalance to the bias in capitalist societies towards the ownership class at the expense of the labor class. I don't think unions are universally good or bad, but they are the reason employees get paid in legal tender rather than company scrip, get weekends off rather than working seven day shifts, and why labor laws even exist. An attitude of antipathy towards unions doesn't offer a better alternative to them, as much as wish businesses and governments could just be left alone to treat labor as they please.