4 ms·

Anyone who says unions are no longer necessary should go and work in an Amazon warehouse for a year. Until the workforce organizes, this is going to keep happe

Anyone who says unions are no longer necessary should go and work in an Amazon warehouse for a year. Until the workforce organizes, this is going to keep happening.

spodek 7y ago
Exactly. Capitalists who don't want collective bargaining probably shouldn't motivate people to see their strength in numbers. I don't see any mystery in why employees would band together in situations like these. They'd be fools not to.
- krapp 7y ago
  >I don't see any mystery in why employees would band together in situations like these. They'd be fools not to. If they're Americans, it's because they've been raised to believe that unions are for lazy degenerate communists who don't want to earn an honest living.
  - futureastronaut 7y ago
    The northeast and upper midwest are pro-union and people aren't raised to think that way in those places. It's a big country.
    - krapp 7y ago
      Fair enough. There are parts of the country for which it is definitely true, though. I'm part of a number of Amazon employee groups on Facebook and the recent news of strikes by Amazon employees over Prime day was met with almost universal derision there - by FC employees, not even managers or tech workers.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
  - SantalBlush 7y ago
    If a businessperson uses all available means to profit, it is smart. If a worker does the same, it is lazy.
    - BuckRogers 7y ago
      That is a good point but wages from labor are not a profit. It’s a trade. Your time and effort for the money. So it’s even worse than you portray. Companies maximizing profits is not a trade that they suffer for. It could simply be theft out of the employee’s pocket, or in the form of harm done to the environment.
  - zdragnar 7y ago
    To better understand antipathy towards unions in the US, do a google search for "new york rubber room". Tens of millions of dollars a year spent on salaries for teachers who had to be pulled from classrooms but couldn't be fired. Due to the backlog of arbiters, they sit around doing nothing at all. It's bad for them, bad for the schools, and bad for the public. It's an extreme example, to be sure, but it is also one that had gotten a fair amount of media attention. No-one wants to work hard when they see someone else taking it easy, knowing that their next pay raise is more closely tied to seniority than it is to on the job performance. Another example is the number of states where unions arranged "votes" to force "home health care workers" to unionize. That is, if you are taking care of a family member who recieves certain kinds of disability welfare, you are automatically deemed a union member, and the dues are taken from the welfare payments. It was nothing more than a blatant money grab when it happened where I lived, and I can assure you that these peope got far less from their "representation" than they got in dues, since they were never technically employees in the first place and no bargaining or contact to begin with. Yes, there are better ways that unions can operate. There are some good unions out there. There is also plenty to criticise too, and pretending that they are a universal good isn't helping anyone. Edit: perhaps the biggest complaint is that the unions are too powerful. Even leaving is hard; the New Haven firefighters had to file a lawsuit to stop the former parent union fron sending their members to collections agencies for their dues after they left. https://www.nhregister.com/news/article/New-Haven-firefighters-win-injunction-against-13457174.php https://www.nhregister.com/news/article/New-Haven-firefighte...
    - krapp 7y ago
      Sure, unions can be corrupt and work against the interests of their members, but businesses and lawmakers can also be corrupt and collude to exploit their workers and constituents. Collective action is a necessary counterbalance to the bias in capitalist societies towards the ownership class at the expense of the labor class. I don't think unions are universally good or bad, but they are the reason employees get paid in legal tender rather than company scrip, get weekends off rather than working seven day shifts, and why labor laws even exist. An attitude of antipathy towards unions doesn't offer a better alternative to them, as much as wish businesses and governments could just be left alone to treat labor as they please.
Nokinside 7y ago
It seems that the US union law favors so called enterprise bargaining or worksite-level bargaining. Companies and workplaces either unionize or not. That kind of system pits unions against companies. If the workplace unionizes, non-unionized companies get an advantage. Whoever fucks their workers hardest gets competitive advantage. My experience of unions comes as an entrepreneur in countries with sectoral bargaining. Companies representing the whole sector negotiate against unions representing most or all workers in that sector. There may be company level deals also, but they are just a side show dealing with local issues. When the deal is made, everyone is at the same level of pain and gain. If company in retail business must allow their workers to pee, so does their competitor. You don't get competitive advantage if you fuck with your workers. It's really just matter of arranging incentives.
- sjg007 7y ago
  This isn’t true. Plenty of construction, plumbing and electricians are unionized. They work on roads, big public or corporate projects and do just fine. The lower end, residential tend to be non-union. Many trades folk want to be in a union. You can also go hang your own shingle too.
- mighty_bander 7y ago
  I think that's a wonderful idea. Are you in Europe? In Canada, we have some sectoral organization but I wouldn't expect it to complete.
- devoply 7y ago
  The whole let's run workers like machines idea because they are poor and they have no bargaining power is very closely akin to slavery and yet is tolerated... and not thought of as completely immoral. I mean how the fuck do you get away with limiting the ability of people to use the restroom.
  - jacorach 7y ago
    OK first the Restroom issue...Can we Please LET THIS GO!!! There is NO RULE saying that I have a limit or restrictions on Restroom use. I can use the Restroom as much/often as I need. I have Never peed in a bottle or trash can Nor have I seen anyone does that either!! I have never gotten written up or in trouble for using the restroom. Really this rumor needs to be put to rest!! Its tired and old. The last time I checked Slaves do not have Freedom and I have freedom to come and go as I please, Slaves do not get paid and I Get Paid VERY Well and get pay raises. Slaves do not get benefits and I get FULL Benefits with all the bells and whistles. I am NOT A Slave. There are no shackles over here. Rachel-Amazon FC Ambassador
Matumio 7y ago
That, or universal basic income. No need for unions if workers can simply say no to a job and live humbly instead. Amazon simply wouldn't find anyone willing to work for them until they improved.

Anyone who says unions are no longer necessary should go and work in an Amazon warehouse for a year. Until the workforce organizes, this is going to keep happening.

spodek 7y ago

Exactly. Capitalists who don't want collective bargaining probably shouldn't motivate people to see their strength in numbers. I don't see any mystery in why employees would band together in situations like these. They'd be fools not to.

krapp 7y ago
>I don't see any mystery in why employees would band together in situations like these. They'd be fools not to. If they're Americans, it's because they've been raised to believe that unions are for lazy degenerate communists who don't want to earn an honest living.
- futureastronaut 7y ago
  The northeast and upper midwest are pro-union and people aren't raised to think that way in those places. It's a big country.
  - krapp 7y ago
    Fair enough. There are parts of the country for which it is definitely true, though. I'm part of a number of Amazon employee groups on Facebook and the recent news of strikes by Amazon employees over Prime day was met with almost universal derision there - by FC employees, not even managers or tech workers.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
- SantalBlush 7y ago
  If a businessperson uses all available means to profit, it is smart. If a worker does the same, it is lazy.
  - BuckRogers 7y ago
    That is a good point but wages from labor are not a profit. It’s a trade. Your time and effort for the money. So it’s even worse than you portray. Companies maximizing profits is not a trade that they suffer for. It could simply be theft out of the employee’s pocket, or in the form of harm done to the environment.
- zdragnar 7y ago
  To better understand antipathy towards unions in the US, do a google search for "new york rubber room". Tens of millions of dollars a year spent on salaries for teachers who had to be pulled from classrooms but couldn't be fired. Due to the backlog of arbiters, they sit around doing nothing at all. It's bad for them, bad for the schools, and bad for the public. It's an extreme example, to be sure, but it is also one that had gotten a fair amount of media attention. No-one wants to work hard when they see someone else taking it easy, knowing that their next pay raise is more closely tied to seniority than it is to on the job performance. Another example is the number of states where unions arranged "votes" to force "home health care workers" to unionize. That is, if you are taking care of a family member who recieves certain kinds of disability welfare, you are automatically deemed a union member, and the dues are taken from the welfare payments. It was nothing more than a blatant money grab when it happened where I lived, and I can assure you that these peope got far less from their "representation" than they got in dues, since they were never technically employees in the first place and no bargaining or contact to begin with. Yes, there are better ways that unions can operate. There are some good unions out there. There is also plenty to criticise too, and pretending that they are a universal good isn't helping anyone. Edit: perhaps the biggest complaint is that the unions are too powerful. Even leaving is hard; the New Haven firefighters had to file a lawsuit to stop the former parent union fron sending their members to collections agencies for their dues after they left. https://www.nhregister.com/news/article/New-Haven-firefighters-win-injunction-against-13457174.php https://www.nhregister.com/news/article/New-Haven-firefighte...
  - krapp 7y ago
    Sure, unions can be corrupt and work against the interests of their members, but businesses and lawmakers can also be corrupt and collude to exploit their workers and constituents. Collective action is a necessary counterbalance to the bias in capitalist societies towards the ownership class at the expense of the labor class. I don't think unions are universally good or bad, but they are the reason employees get paid in legal tender rather than company scrip, get weekends off rather than working seven day shifts, and why labor laws even exist. An attitude of antipathy towards unions doesn't offer a better alternative to them, as much as wish businesses and governments could just be left alone to treat labor as they please.

Nokinside 7y ago

It seems that the US union law favors so called enterprise bargaining or worksite-level bargaining. Companies and workplaces either unionize or not. That kind of system pits unions against companies. If the workplace unionizes, non-unionized companies get an advantage. Whoever fucks their workers hardest gets competitive advantage. My experience of unions comes as an entrepreneur in countries with sectoral bargaining. Companies representing the whole sector negotiate against unions representing most or all workers in that sector. There may be company level deals also, but they are just a side show dealing with local issues. When the deal is made, everyone is at the same level of pain and gain. If company in retail business must allow their workers to pee, so does their competitor. You don't get competitive advantage if you fuck with your workers. It's really just matter of arranging incentives.

sjg007 7y ago
This isn’t true. Plenty of construction, plumbing and electricians are unionized. They work on roads, big public or corporate projects and do just fine. The lower end, residential tend to be non-union. Many trades folk want to be in a union. You can also go hang your own shingle too.
mighty_bander 7y ago
I think that's a wonderful idea. Are you in Europe? In Canada, we have some sectoral organization but I wouldn't expect it to complete.
devoply 7y ago
The whole let's run workers like machines idea because they are poor and they have no bargaining power is very closely akin to slavery and yet is tolerated... and not thought of as completely immoral. I mean how the fuck do you get away with limiting the ability of people to use the restroom.
- jacorach 7y ago
  OK first the Restroom issue...Can we Please LET THIS GO!!! There is NO RULE saying that I have a limit or restrictions on Restroom use. I can use the Restroom as much/often as I need. I have Never peed in a bottle or trash can Nor have I seen anyone does that either!! I have never gotten written up or in trouble for using the restroom. Really this rumor needs to be put to rest!! Its tired and old. The last time I checked Slaves do not have Freedom and I have freedom to come and go as I please, Slaves do not get paid and I Get Paid VERY Well and get pay raises. Slaves do not get benefits and I get FULL Benefits with all the bells and whistles. I am NOT A Slave. There are no shackles over here. Rachel-Amazon FC Ambassador

Matumio 7y ago

That, or universal basic income. No need for unions if workers can simply say no to a job and live humbly instead. Amazon simply wouldn't find anyone willing to work for them until they improved.