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> It's not like using them will make you forgot the basic commands, movements, etc, to use vim in some unknown remote machine. No, but time I spend setting up

by kd5bjo 7y ago

> It's not like using them will make you forgot the basic commands, movements, etc, to use vim in some unknown remote machine. No, but time I spend setting up and tweaking a custom environment is time I could be spending internalizing the tools that exist everywhere and work well after the learning curve. Since working on a foreign machine usually only happens when something’s broken, it’s already a stressful situation— my tools not behaving the way I expect won’t help matters.

coldtea 7y ago
>No, but time I spend setting up and tweaking a custom environment is time I could be spending internalizing the tools that exist everywhere and work well after the learning curve. You should be able to "internalize" the tools that "exist everywhere" in a year or two are most. If you start using vim at the university you would be done internalizing its internal tools when you graduate. You then have the rest 30+ years of your career to use a nice environment, and it doesn't take much time "setting up and tweaking" to get non-internal tools like NerdTree, linters, git gutter, etc working. More like a week or so, on and off.
- kerkeslager 7y ago
  > You should be able to "internalize" the tools that "exist everywhere" in a year or two are most. If you start using vim at the university you would be done internalizing its internal tools when you graduate. Absolutely not. I have been using vim for almost a decade at this point and still am internalizing new vim skills.
  - coldtea 7y ago
    >Absolutely not. I have been using vim for almost a decade at this point and still am internalizing new vim skills. One decade? How long can this go on? Two decades? Three? If one is in the middle of their professional career before they've mastered all the "vim skills" (or even more so, the more numerous) Emacs skills, then they'll never gonna master them all in time to matter anyway. And the point of internal vs third party is not if internal are numerous enough, but if they're productive, convenient enough. Internally vim has tons of features, but it doesn't have a linter, for example. In any case, things one still discovers "a decade in" are not really an argument for not setting up a good main driver vim environment with more than built-in conveniences. Those wont prevent you from learning vim built ins, and you could get immediate access to features, and in a more convenient form, that could take you a decade to chance upon as built-ins.
    - kerkeslager 7y ago
      > One decade? How long can this go on? Two decades? Three? If one is in the middle of their professional career before they've mastered all the "vim skills" (or even more so, the more numerous) Emacs skills, then they'll never gonna master them all in time to matter anyway. I think you're mistaken in thinking there's a solution to this problem, or even that it's a problem. The limiting factors here are your rate of learning and when you stop learning. Continuing to learn well into your career is a feature, not a bug. > And the point of internal vs third party is not if internal are numerous enough, but if they're productive, convenient enough. Internally vim has tons of features, but it doesn't have a linter, for example. I have a linter. It doesn't need to be in my editor, and I rarely make linting errors anyway. When I do make linting errors, I want it to be a bit painful so I stop making linting errors. I'd argue that the bugs introduced by your linter are worse than the problem they solve. And the more plugins you have, the more buggy your system is due to the interactions. > In any case, things one still discovers "a decade in" are not really an argument for not setting up a good main driver vim environment with more than built-in conveniences. Those wont prevent you from learning vim built ins, and you could get immediate access to features, and in a more convenient form, that could take you a decade to chance upon as built-ins. Chance across? Don't plugins have the same problem, that you have to wait to chance across them? If you're actively out searching for plugins to solve your problems, you'll find them, but if you just google how to solve the problems with builtin tools, you'll find that too. Plugins absolutely prevent you from using builtins, and frequently break the builtins to boot. You're probably right about the very basic stuff (i.e. movement, deletion, insertion) but anything beyond that is frequently broken on systems with a lot of plugins.
- kd5bjo 7y ago
  That’s fair enough, I guess. At this point, I’m happy enough with my workflow despite (or maybe because) I don’t know what most of those things do. Some novelists use fancy purpose-made software and others use old-fashioned yellow legal pads; I guess I lean more towards the latter when it comes to software development.

by kd5bjo 7y ago

coldtea 7y ago

>No, but time I spend setting up and tweaking a custom environment is time I could be spending internalizing the tools that exist everywhere and work well after the learning curve. You should be able to "internalize" the tools that "exist everywhere" in a year or two are most. If you start using vim at the university you would be done internalizing its internal tools when you graduate. You then have the rest 30+ years of your career to use a nice environment, and it doesn't take much time "setting up and tweaking" to get non-internal tools like NerdTree, linters, git gutter, etc working. More like a week or so, on and off.

kerkeslager 7y ago
> You should be able to "internalize" the tools that "exist everywhere" in a year or two are most. If you start using vim at the university you would be done internalizing its internal tools when you graduate. Absolutely not. I have been using vim for almost a decade at this point and still am internalizing new vim skills.
- coldtea 7y ago
  >Absolutely not. I have been using vim for almost a decade at this point and still am internalizing new vim skills. One decade? How long can this go on? Two decades? Three? If one is in the middle of their professional career before they've mastered all the "vim skills" (or even more so, the more numerous) Emacs skills, then they'll never gonna master them all in time to matter anyway. And the point of internal vs third party is not if internal are numerous enough, but if they're productive, convenient enough. Internally vim has tons of features, but it doesn't have a linter, for example. In any case, things one still discovers "a decade in" are not really an argument for not setting up a good main driver vim environment with more than built-in conveniences. Those wont prevent you from learning vim built ins, and you could get immediate access to features, and in a more convenient form, that could take you a decade to chance upon as built-ins.
  - kerkeslager 7y ago
    > One decade? How long can this go on? Two decades? Three? If one is in the middle of their professional career before they've mastered all the "vim skills" (or even more so, the more numerous) Emacs skills, then they'll never gonna master them all in time to matter anyway. I think you're mistaken in thinking there's a solution to this problem, or even that it's a problem. The limiting factors here are your rate of learning and when you stop learning. Continuing to learn well into your career is a feature, not a bug. > And the point of internal vs third party is not if internal are numerous enough, but if they're productive, convenient enough. Internally vim has tons of features, but it doesn't have a linter, for example. I have a linter. It doesn't need to be in my editor, and I rarely make linting errors anyway. When I do make linting errors, I want it to be a bit painful so I stop making linting errors. I'd argue that the bugs introduced by your linter are worse than the problem they solve. And the more plugins you have, the more buggy your system is due to the interactions. > In any case, things one still discovers "a decade in" are not really an argument for not setting up a good main driver vim environment with more than built-in conveniences. Those wont prevent you from learning vim built ins, and you could get immediate access to features, and in a more convenient form, that could take you a decade to chance upon as built-ins. Chance across? Don't plugins have the same problem, that you have to wait to chance across them? If you're actively out searching for plugins to solve your problems, you'll find them, but if you just google how to solve the problems with builtin tools, you'll find that too. Plugins absolutely prevent you from using builtins, and frequently break the builtins to boot. You're probably right about the very basic stuff (i.e. movement, deletion, insertion) but anything beyond that is frequently broken on systems with a lot of plugins.
kd5bjo 7y ago
That’s fair enough, I guess. At this point, I’m happy enough with my workflow despite (or maybe because) I don’t know what most of those things do. Some novelists use fancy purpose-made software and others use old-fashioned yellow legal pads; I guess I lean more towards the latter when it comes to software development.