9 ms·

Touching Your Junk: An Ontological Complaint

225 points by aheilbut 16y ago

forensic 16y ago
It may not technically be a Venn Diagram but I still think it is a legitimate way to represent something - and do it better than the author's alternatives. You have to look at the chart differently but I don't think this makes it a bad graphic. Each intersection is a way of representing what the two intersecting groups have in common, rather than demonstrating what the groups are. The question is, "What do doctors and TSA agents have in common?" and the answer goes in the intersecting region. While not technically a Venn Diagram I think it is still a useful graphic.
- kleiba 16y ago
  I think you're right, the whole "problem" he's addressing stems from the fact that someone called the original graphics a Venn diagram when they shouldn't have. However, I do think that one of his alternatives is actually quite good, and does convey the same information as the original diagram: http://eblong.com/zarf/pic/thod/venn-inside.png http://eblong.com/zarf/pic/thod/venn-inside.png
- Retric 16y ago
  I disagree. "Venn diagrams or set diagrams are diagrams that show all hypothetically possible logical relations between a finite collection of sets" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venn_diagram http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venn_diagram There is nothing wrong with showing Venn diagrams of property's of something. It's really just another set. PS: Numbers are abstract ideas not physical objects. So, Venn diagrams where really designed to show relationships between ideas.
jaekwon 16y ago
The original image is a proper Venn Diagram if you think of the diagram representing various properties of professions. The only correction you need is to replace "Doctor" with "other properties of doctors", etc, to be technically correct -- though i much prefer the original. Nice post anyways
- kwantam 16y ago
  To this end: we can (WLOG) make the degenerate observation that a property of all doctors is that they are doctors. Then the original chart just shorthands away whatever conjugation of "to be" is proper in the outermost bubbles, and does indeed map properties of the various groups.
  - shasta 16y ago
    It's still not a Venn diagram. A Venn diagram labels regions, not points in the regions. The diagram could be made correct by placing little dots in the intersection regions to show that these are points in the intersection, whereas the outermost categories are sets of properties. But it still wouldn't really be a Venn diagram :)
- nandemo 16y ago
  But that's exactly what he did in the post (see 3rd diagram from the end).
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
Qz 16y ago
This article takes something simple and elegant (if incorrectly labeled) and turns it into a sad tortured example of how to get yourself picked on in high school.
- benbeltran 16y ago
  This article takes something funny and turns it into an insightful article without being a bitch about it (I found it quite humorous). You're all hating too much.
  - amvp 16y ago
    I accidentally up-voted the GP, but I agree - it's well written, and makes a fair point which I think isn't too pedantic. Although he mislabels http://eblong.com/zarf/pic/thod/venn-wtf.png http://eblong.com/zarf/pic/thod/venn-wtf.png 'Strumpet MDs' and 'Medical Security Guards', should be reversed.
    - stcredzero 16y ago
      I accidentally up-voted the GP Actually, that's perfect for a segue into epistemology.
- Vivtek 16y ago
  Good Lord, my entire life and livelihood are things that would have (and in some cases did) get me picked on in high school. This made me laugh; if it doesn't do the same for Joe Public, then it's his loss, not mine.
- Semiapies 16y ago
  This article takes something simple and funny and makes a rambling, complicated, and funny riff off of it.
panacea 16y ago
He's right though. Line diagrams as JPEGs are annoying.
- steadicat 16y ago
  He complains about using JPEGs yet his PNGs are unreasonably large (60-120KB). I compressed one of his 80KB images into 15KB just by re-saving it.
  - angelbob 16y ago
    I suspect he doesn't care much about the storage space. JPEGs make the edges of the lines blurry or noisy - they're designed for things like nature photographs, not sharp hard edges between single-color areas.
    - Fargren 16y ago
      It's not about storage space, is about loading time. When I read it through the connection I have at work, it took about 2 minutes to load.
      - panacea 16y ago
        When it's JPG artifacts in an image best suited for PNG you blame the publisher. When it's slow loading times you blame the pipes and the piper. Me? I blame three letter acronyms.
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harshpotatoes 16y ago
Is it weird that internet memes still manage to find a way here, albeit in a roundabout manner?
- stcredzero 16y ago
  Often, it's not so roundabout.
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Bud 16y ago
I laughed out loud at the bit about "probably something from Bruce Schneier". Really funny stuff overall. If you didn't like this, you need to relax and have more egg nog.
niels_olson 16y ago
> De Morgan's law. The union of two properties is the intersection of the sets of people who have those properties. (And vice versa.) De Morgan's Law!!!!!!! I first learned about this in a Moore-method point-set topology class in 1995, and I have been trying to remember the name of this property since. Thank you, thank you, thank you!

225 points by aheilbut 16y ago

It may not technically be a Venn Diagram but I still think it is a legitimate way to represent something - and do it better than the author's alternatives. You have to look at the chart differently but I don't think this makes it a bad graphic. Each intersection is a way of representing what the two intersecting groups have in common, rather than demonstrating what the groups are. The question is, "What do doctors and TSA agents have in common?" and the answer goes in the intersecting region. While not technically a Venn Diagram I think it is still a useful graphic.

kleiba 16y ago
I think you're right, the whole "problem" he's addressing stems from the fact that someone called the original graphics a Venn diagram when they shouldn't have. However, I do think that one of his alternatives is actually quite good, and does convey the same information as the original diagram: http://eblong.com/zarf/pic/thod/venn-inside.png http://eblong.com/zarf/pic/thod/venn-inside.png
Retric 16y ago
I disagree. "Venn diagrams or set diagrams are diagrams that show all hypothetically possible logical relations between a finite collection of sets" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venn_diagram http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venn_diagram There is nothing wrong with showing Venn diagrams of property's of something. It's really just another set. PS: Numbers are abstract ideas not physical objects. So, Venn diagrams where really designed to show relationships between ideas.

jaekwon 16y ago

The original image is a proper Venn Diagram if you think of the diagram representing various properties of professions. The only correction you need is to replace "Doctor" with "other properties of doctors", etc, to be technically correct -- though i much prefer the original. Nice post anyways

kwantam 16y ago
To this end: we can (WLOG) make the degenerate observation that a property of all doctors is that they are doctors. Then the original chart just shorthands away whatever conjugation of "to be" is proper in the outermost bubbles, and does indeed map properties of the various groups.
- shasta 16y ago
  It's still not a Venn diagram. A Venn diagram labels regions, not points in the regions. The diagram could be made correct by placing little dots in the intersection regions to show that these are points in the intersection, whereas the outermost categories are sets of properties. But it still wouldn't really be a Venn diagram :)
nandemo 16y ago
But that's exactly what he did in the post (see 3rd diagram from the end).

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

Qz 16y ago

This article takes something simple and elegant (if incorrectly labeled) and turns it into a sad tortured example of how to get yourself picked on in high school.

benbeltran 16y ago
This article takes something funny and turns it into an insightful article without being a bitch about it (I found it quite humorous). You're all hating too much.
- amvp 16y ago
  I accidentally up-voted the GP, but I agree - it's well written, and makes a fair point which I think isn't too pedantic. Although he mislabels http://eblong.com/zarf/pic/thod/venn-wtf.png http://eblong.com/zarf/pic/thod/venn-wtf.png 'Strumpet MDs' and 'Medical Security Guards', should be reversed.
  - stcredzero 16y ago
    I accidentally up-voted the GP Actually, that's perfect for a segue into epistemology.
Vivtek 16y ago
Good Lord, my entire life and livelihood are things that would have (and in some cases did) get me picked on in high school. This made me laugh; if it doesn't do the same for Joe Public, then it's his loss, not mine.
Semiapies 16y ago
This article takes something simple and funny and makes a rambling, complicated, and funny riff off of it.

panacea 16y ago

He's right though. Line diagrams as JPEGs are annoying.

steadicat 16y ago
He complains about using JPEGs yet his PNGs are unreasonably large (60-120KB). I compressed one of his 80KB images into 15KB just by re-saving it.
- angelbob 16y ago
  I suspect he doesn't care much about the storage space. JPEGs make the edges of the lines blurry or noisy - they're designed for things like nature photographs, not sharp hard edges between single-color areas.
  - Fargren 16y ago
    It's not about storage space, is about loading time. When I read it through the connection I have at work, it took about 2 minutes to load.
    - panacea 16y ago
      When it's JPG artifacts in an image best suited for PNG you blame the publisher. When it's slow loading times you blame the pipes and the piper. Me? I blame three letter acronyms.

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harshpotatoes 16y ago

Is it weird that internet memes still manage to find a way here, albeit in a roundabout manner?

stcredzero 16y ago
Often, it's not so roundabout.

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Bud 16y ago

I laughed out loud at the bit about "probably something from Bruce Schneier". Really funny stuff overall. If you didn't like this, you need to relax and have more egg nog.

niels_olson 16y ago

> De Morgan's law. The union of two properties is the intersection of the sets of people who have those properties. (And vice versa.) De Morgan's Law!!!!!!! I first learned about this in a Moore-method point-set topology class in 1995, and I have been trying to remember the name of this property since. Thank you, thank you, thank you!