4 ms·

I believe your interpretation is being disingenuous with the data and everything known about how H1Bs are utilized. You seem to gloss over the fact that tech j

I believe your interpretation is being disingenuous with the data and everything known about how H1Bs are utilized. You seem to gloss over the fact that tech jobs don’t actually require everyone to hold a specific CS degree (in reality and practice few do if you have the skills). So once you expand your definition of skilled workers to include everyone that could adequately fill such positions, you are looking at a much larger pool of workers than just fresh CS grads. You definitely don’t need a CS degree to be a low level analyst, tester, etc. which has been a pretty popular H1B position. From the linked article, you likely also have adequate coding skills if you come from an engineering, scientific, STEM, or similar background. Then add people from bootcamps that came from outside STEM. You also ignore that H1Bs are frequently used to replace citizens, their poor working conditions, and lower salaries. You seem to apply to another perpetual myth in economics that companies like to spout about labour shortages and skilled labour shortages. There are few if any economic studies that conclude there are actual widespread shortages of candidates with necessary skills. What you seem to ascribe to is a shortage of workers that are willing to be taken advantage of, work for lower wages, and work in poor conditions.

DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
"Disingenuous" means "dishonest." Did you actually intend to accuse me of dishonesty? > From the linked article, you likely also have adequate coding skills if you come from an engineering, scientific, STEM, or similar background. The linked article discusses the fact that people with a broad range of undergraduate computer-, math- and engineering-related degrees have unemployment rates of 1.5-2% in the United States. Long-term unemployment for these groups is even lower, in the 0.4-0.7% range. > Then add people from bootcamps that came from outside STEM. Now you're discussing people who likely don't have the same qualifications as people coming in on H1B visas. On the other hand, you're not providing any evidence that these people have trouble finding employment in the tech sector, so I don't know what I'm supposed to make of your argument here. > You seem to apply to another perpetual myth in economics that companies like to spout about labour shortages and skilled labour shortages. Everything you're describing points towards a constrained labor market in tech. Unemployment for people with relevant undergraduate degrees is near 0%. Companies are desperate to increase the number of visas for tech workers. People can go to "bootcamps" for a few weeks to get basic training in programming, and then quickly find high-paying employment. If I can add to that: big tech companies are offering lavish workplace benefits (free gourmet food, free gyms, free transportation, etc.) in order to try to attract talent. This all points towards a very tight labor market in tech. > You also ignore that H1Bs are frequently used to replace citizens, their poor working conditions, and lower salaries. [...] What you seem to ascribe to is a shortage of workers that are willing to be taken advantage of, work for lower wages, and work in poor conditions. I've read the horror stories, just like everyone else. But in general, we're talking about people making 80k+ USD per year, many far more. Most people in America would love to be "taken advantage of" for $100k/year. It's very difficult to get behind a political call to action to exclude foreigners from the labor market in order to limit wage competition for people in the top few percent of the income distribution.
- unimployed 7y ago
  Yes, dishonest (maybe to yourself) or naive. Try not to behave too reactively on a call out for handwaving or ignorance, it makes you appear more biased, partial, and unable to evaluate things honestly. $80k average is very low if we are to believe that these workers can’t be found in the USA, where the average for a tech worker is significantly higher at >$110k. Also, the minimum H1B wage is still $60k, which seems to encourage companies to try anything to get approval for what amounts to the wages of junior and intern level employees. You can see this low minimum is clearly being utilized since the average is $30k cheaper annually. The average H1B wage alone tells you the wages are purposefully bid underneath the average tech worker as a cost savings. If the talent actually could not be found from citizens, the wages (price) would obviously be above what citizens are paid. Basic economics. You want to make your case based on the long-term unemployment statistic? It is a poor measurement to trot out here, since the definition of the measurement will no longer count individuals that exit the field or give up searching or no longer fit in the period of measurement. All it says is that inside the period of measurement, the individuals being measured did not report to the survey lottery that they were claiming unemployment benefits or that they were seeking a replacement job. I know of no one who has ever been contacted by such a survey, so it is difficult to place any faith in the results that are measured outside of unemployment benefits. What is not answered is whether U.S. citizen tech workers are actually working in tech or properly utilizing their skills, experience, or degree. Just because people are employed doing something does not mean people are not perhaps chronically underemployed. In fact we know this in a modern chronic issue in many fields (STEM, etc.). The history of the tech sector is rife with examples of people that are self-taught or transitioned into a tech job without a degree to speak of (HS drop-outs too). I don’t think you can make a blanket statement that people that didn’t choose CS as their initial degree are lower quality than an individual from another nation that likely (highly likely) completed a CS degree with the very intent of increasing their chances of immigrating. It may be difficult for you to process why citizens want to address the issues in the H1B system because dare I say you might be biased?
  - dang 7y ago
    This comment breaks the site guidelines by crossing into personal attack. Please edit personal swipes out of your comments here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

DiogenesKynikos 7y ago

"Disingenuous" means "dishonest." Did you actually intend to accuse me of dishonesty? > From the linked article, you likely also have adequate coding skills if you come from an engineering, scientific, STEM, or similar background. The linked article discusses the fact that people with a broad range of undergraduate computer-, math- and engineering-related degrees have unemployment rates of 1.5-2% in the United States. Long-term unemployment for these groups is even lower, in the 0.4-0.7% range. > Then add people from bootcamps that came from outside STEM. Now you're discussing people who likely don't have the same qualifications as people coming in on H1B visas. On the other hand, you're not providing any evidence that these people have trouble finding employment in the tech sector, so I don't know what I'm supposed to make of your argument here. > You seem to apply to another perpetual myth in economics that companies like to spout about labour shortages and skilled labour shortages. Everything you're describing points towards a constrained labor market in tech. Unemployment for people with relevant undergraduate degrees is near 0%. Companies are desperate to increase the number of visas for tech workers. People can go to "bootcamps" for a few weeks to get basic training in programming, and then quickly find high-paying employment. If I can add to that: big tech companies are offering lavish workplace benefits (free gourmet food, free gyms, free transportation, etc.) in order to try to attract talent. This all points towards a very tight labor market in tech. > You also ignore that H1Bs are frequently used to replace citizens, their poor working conditions, and lower salaries. [...] What you seem to ascribe to is a shortage of workers that are willing to be taken advantage of, work for lower wages, and work in poor conditions. I've read the horror stories, just like everyone else. But in general, we're talking about people making 80k+ USD per year, many far more. Most people in America would love to be "taken advantage of" for $100k/year. It's very difficult to get behind a political call to action to exclude foreigners from the labor market in order to limit wage competition for people in the top few percent of the income distribution.

unimployed 7y ago
Yes, dishonest (maybe to yourself) or naive. Try not to behave too reactively on a call out for handwaving or ignorance, it makes you appear more biased, partial, and unable to evaluate things honestly. $80k average is very low if we are to believe that these workers can’t be found in the USA, where the average for a tech worker is significantly higher at >$110k. Also, the minimum H1B wage is still $60k, which seems to encourage companies to try anything to get approval for what amounts to the wages of junior and intern level employees. You can see this low minimum is clearly being utilized since the average is $30k cheaper annually. The average H1B wage alone tells you the wages are purposefully bid underneath the average tech worker as a cost savings. If the talent actually could not be found from citizens, the wages (price) would obviously be above what citizens are paid. Basic economics. You want to make your case based on the long-term unemployment statistic? It is a poor measurement to trot out here, since the definition of the measurement will no longer count individuals that exit the field or give up searching or no longer fit in the period of measurement. All it says is that inside the period of measurement, the individuals being measured did not report to the survey lottery that they were claiming unemployment benefits or that they were seeking a replacement job. I know of no one who has ever been contacted by such a survey, so it is difficult to place any faith in the results that are measured outside of unemployment benefits. What is not answered is whether U.S. citizen tech workers are actually working in tech or properly utilizing their skills, experience, or degree. Just because people are employed doing something does not mean people are not perhaps chronically underemployed. In fact we know this in a modern chronic issue in many fields (STEM, etc.). The history of the tech sector is rife with examples of people that are self-taught or transitioned into a tech job without a degree to speak of (HS drop-outs too). I don’t think you can make a blanket statement that people that didn’t choose CS as their initial degree are lower quality than an individual from another nation that likely (highly likely) completed a CS degree with the very intent of increasing their chances of immigrating. It may be difficult for you to process why citizens want to address the issues in the H1B system because dare I say you might be biased?
- dang 7y ago
  This comment breaks the site guidelines by crossing into personal attack. Please edit personal swipes out of your comments here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html