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> (Also, my gut feeling is that when you're talking about "arguments" instead of "facts", "evidence" and probabilities, you're in business of convincing, not tr

> (Also, my gut feeling is that when you're talking about "arguments" instead of "facts", "evidence" and probabilities, you're in business of convincing, not truth seeking). Depending on context pro/contra is probably what can be generated from facts when comparing things, so facts should be persistent, pro/contra dynamically generated.

TeMPOraL 7y ago
Yes, I came to the same conclusions. Pro/contra trees look like an answer to a query on the graph. One thing I find manually written pro/contra trees don't capture is that the same observation can be simultaneously a pro and a contra, or can flip between being pro and a contra depending on strength of that observation, or surrounding context. Ultimately, I find those trees a nice visualization, and writing them an interesting exercise in structuring your thoughts, but I'm not convinced whether or not they're helpful at getting to the truth.
- jmiskovic 7y ago
  Are you aware of other tought structuring tools, that are better for 'getting to the truth' as you say it? I haven't yet found a proper structure for purposes of collecting and categorizing ideas, and for reasoning about them. A tree structure is great for it's simplicity. It maps well to most use cases I need, but not all of them. A strict tree is too limiting and cannot avoid duplication. I'd like a tool that could build a structure that is almost-a-tree would be visualized as a tree, but it would allow a special case linking between any two nodes. A general graph lacks the necessary structure. Without the structure, the tool isn't really supporting me and I can just use the yEd graph editor. I could use some queries on the graph to shape it into tree on demand, but then I lose mind's spatial ability to navigate the graph.
  - TeMPOraL 7y ago
    No, I'm not aware of better tools. I'm beginning to feel like I should start prototyping one. I though about this topic a bit on numerous occasions, and I keep feeling that trees don't map well to this use case. I still think a directed graph is necessary, and likely one supporting cycles. The structure will be imposed by reality itself. Anything less than a directed graph will fail to capture causal relationships between entities. yEd... well, I spent a lot of hours with yEd Live recently, and I have complaints :). Like, where's the ability to simply place a piece of text on a diagram as a node?! It's ironic, but it seems to me that in 2019, there still isn't a good tool implementing the simple concept of infinite, pannable, zoomable canvas for typing on it and building arbitrary directed graphs on it.
    - nathan_f77 7y ago
      I've also been thinking about building a tool like this for a really long time. I would be interested in collaborating, so I'll send you an email!
      - jmiskovic 7y ago
        I've described a tool I'm currently designing in the sibling thread. I'm planning on building it in re-frame, which is basically React + Redux made for ClojureScript. I've learned Clojure just for this project, I could not make it work with any other language I knew. I'm currently learning Datomic because it might be the ideal way of capturing, growing and querying this knowledge graph. We should join some kind of communication group to see if we are after the same thing, and to track each others progress. Maybe a new reddit group?
        dustingetz 7y ago
        I think Connor White Sullivan is was working on something like this as of last Conj https://twitter.com/conaw https://twitter.com/conaw http://roamresearch.com/ http://roamresearch.com/ I also know Jeremy Taylor (who works on Crux) was working on a DataScript based org mode like graph tool
        manx 7y ago
        As a shameless plug: I created a chat room on my own graph-based collaboration platform you can join via this link: https://app.woost.space/#page=5W4B6pA5yVDprYMkRyLuE1 https://app.woost.space/#page=5W4B6pA5yVDprYMkRyLuE1 I hope a bunch of interested people manage to organize and build something great!
        nathan_f77 7y ago
        Hi, that sounds awesome! I'm also very interested in learning Clojure/ClojureScript, and re-frame sounds great. I think it would be important to choose a functional language for this project. I've also been thinking about using Haskell, and writing the core engine in Idris. (I also recently had an idea for an experiment after reading about Nix expressions, and how I might be able to use some of these underlying concepts and algorithms.) I've created a Discord chat group for the project I've been wanting to work on. Please feel free to join with this link: https://discord.gg/7Ca3R8 https://discord.gg/7Ca3R8 I think we might have a few people in here who are working on different ideas in the same space, so it would be great to bounce ideas off each other. A Reddit group also sounds good!
  - fragmede 7y ago
    I've used https://whimsical.com/ https://whimsical.com/ (no affiliation) to do mind maps, which is a GUI tool, and it supports doing arbitrary lines/arrows, but it's not super happy with doing that. GraphViz will go from text to whatever tree-ish graphical representation you want, but naturally there is some time investment required, especially if you want pretty output.
    - jmiskovic 7y ago
      Just tried whimsical. It's impressive for online tool, but the UX is too slow for me. I need a fast visual tool to create graphs, GraphViz is just the rendering part. Thanks for suggestions, though.
Brendinooo 7y ago
One thing I've been considering is that facts are used to support underlying assumptions that would be useful if coaxed out. Facts aren't arguments, they're neutral things that people pick and choose from to shape their worldview. If I could conclusively establish that, on average, there's a 3% chance that your house is robbed this year, some people will view that as a risk to mitigate and some won't.

TeMPOraL 7y ago

Yes, I came to the same conclusions. Pro/contra trees look like an answer to a query on the graph. One thing I find manually written pro/contra trees don't capture is that the same observation can be simultaneously a pro and a contra, or can flip between being pro and a contra depending on strength of that observation, or surrounding context. Ultimately, I find those trees a nice visualization, and writing them an interesting exercise in structuring your thoughts, but I'm not convinced whether or not they're helpful at getting to the truth.

jmiskovic 7y ago
Are you aware of other tought structuring tools, that are better for 'getting to the truth' as you say it? I haven't yet found a proper structure for purposes of collecting and categorizing ideas, and for reasoning about them. A tree structure is great for it's simplicity. It maps well to most use cases I need, but not all of them. A strict tree is too limiting and cannot avoid duplication. I'd like a tool that could build a structure that is almost-a-tree would be visualized as a tree, but it would allow a special case linking between any two nodes. A general graph lacks the necessary structure. Without the structure, the tool isn't really supporting me and I can just use the yEd graph editor. I could use some queries on the graph to shape it into tree on demand, but then I lose mind's spatial ability to navigate the graph.
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  No, I'm not aware of better tools. I'm beginning to feel like I should start prototyping one. I though about this topic a bit on numerous occasions, and I keep feeling that trees don't map well to this use case. I still think a directed graph is necessary, and likely one supporting cycles. The structure will be imposed by reality itself. Anything less than a directed graph will fail to capture causal relationships between entities. yEd... well, I spent a lot of hours with yEd Live recently, and I have complaints :). Like, where's the ability to simply place a piece of text on a diagram as a node?! It's ironic, but it seems to me that in 2019, there still isn't a good tool implementing the simple concept of infinite, pannable, zoomable canvas for typing on it and building arbitrary directed graphs on it.
  - nathan_f77 7y ago
    I've also been thinking about building a tool like this for a really long time. I would be interested in collaborating, so I'll send you an email!
    - jmiskovic 7y ago
      I've described a tool I'm currently designing in the sibling thread. I'm planning on building it in re-frame, which is basically React + Redux made for ClojureScript. I've learned Clojure just for this project, I could not make it work with any other language I knew. I'm currently learning Datomic because it might be the ideal way of capturing, growing and querying this knowledge graph. We should join some kind of communication group to see if we are after the same thing, and to track each others progress. Maybe a new reddit group?
      - dustingetz 7y ago
        I think Connor White Sullivan is was working on something like this as of last Conj https://twitter.com/conaw https://twitter.com/conaw http://roamresearch.com/ http://roamresearch.com/ I also know Jeremy Taylor (who works on Crux) was working on a DataScript based org mode like graph tool
      - manx 7y ago
        As a shameless plug: I created a chat room on my own graph-based collaboration platform you can join via this link: https://app.woost.space/#page=5W4B6pA5yVDprYMkRyLuE1 https://app.woost.space/#page=5W4B6pA5yVDprYMkRyLuE1 I hope a bunch of interested people manage to organize and build something great!
      - nathan_f77 7y ago
        Hi, that sounds awesome! I'm also very interested in learning Clojure/ClojureScript, and re-frame sounds great. I think it would be important to choose a functional language for this project. I've also been thinking about using Haskell, and writing the core engine in Idris. (I also recently had an idea for an experiment after reading about Nix expressions, and how I might be able to use some of these underlying concepts and algorithms.) I've created a Discord chat group for the project I've been wanting to work on. Please feel free to join with this link: https://discord.gg/7Ca3R8 https://discord.gg/7Ca3R8 I think we might have a few people in here who are working on different ideas in the same space, so it would be great to bounce ideas off each other. A Reddit group also sounds good!
- fragmede 7y ago
  I've used https://whimsical.com/ https://whimsical.com/ (no affiliation) to do mind maps, which is a GUI tool, and it supports doing arbitrary lines/arrows, but it's not super happy with doing that. GraphViz will go from text to whatever tree-ish graphical representation you want, but naturally there is some time investment required, especially if you want pretty output.
  - jmiskovic 7y ago
    Just tried whimsical. It's impressive for online tool, but the UX is too slow for me. I need a fast visual tool to create graphs, GraphViz is just the rendering part. Thanks for suggestions, though.

Brendinooo 7y ago

One thing I've been considering is that facts are used to support underlying assumptions that would be useful if coaxed out. Facts aren't arguments, they're neutral things that people pick and choose from to shape their worldview. If I could conclusively establish that, on average, there's a 3% chance that your house is robbed this year, some people will view that as a risk to mitigate and some won't.