4 ms·

It is impossible to ban an idea or an algorithm.

by quotemstr 7y ago

dredmorbius 7y ago
Citation requested.
- bryanrasmussen 7y ago
  You may cite me on this - 1. first of all to ban the idea you will have to be specific enough in describing the idea in a law that can be referenced so that when people think they are encountering the idea they may reference the law to be sure. Any one who can reference that law will be exposed to the idea. 2. ideas are not static expressions, perhaps we can think of them as nodes in a directed graph of all human thought, if you want delete the node you should direct all the nodes with arrows pointing at that node or someone is going to notice hey there are a lot of arrows pointing over here at this node that is gone and come up with the idea all over again by what is implied by the arrows. 3. if we think of ideas instead of how memetics would describe them we have a similar problem to number 2, that idea evolved from other ideas, and it is evolving into other ideas as we speak. Perhaps at some point we will have the technology to get rid of a memetic infection but not yet. And considering how well we've done on getting rid of measels I doubt it. 4. Probably the closest we can come to killing off an idea is the destructions of heresies in the middle ages, for example the Adamite heresy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adamites https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adamites however the ideas still exist as evidenced by the Wikipedia page, just nobody cares enough to embody the idea. So, instead of killing facial recogniton if a similar thing were done with facial recognition that was done with the ideas of the Adamites we should kill a lot of facial recognition researchers and people building facial recognition tools, and then hope that nobody new will care to do any facial recognition stuff (if you get brutal enough that just might be). Making the idea unpopular might work, but I doubt it, because the utility and power the idea promises would be too great a temptation. Do you need a citation on the too great a temptation statement?
  - vangelis 7y ago
    Counterpoint, the ATF's gun database. The technology exists, and yet it's not digitized. It's purely a policy issue.
    - bryanrasmussen 7y ago
      what does the ATF's gun database have to do with banning an idea? The database may be used to ban guns, but probably not every gun in existence, and as such it will not do anything about banning the idea that you can shoot metal projectiles out of a small handheld device with a cylinder for shooting the projectile s out of (so as to provide aiming capabilities and speed) in a way that these small handheld devices can be used as effective people killing tools.
      - dredmorbius 7y ago
        The database itself is the idea that's been banned, or at least any computerised form of it. By the the Firearm Owners Protection Act (1986) a/k/a FOPA, 18 U.S.C. 926 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/926 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/926 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_Owners_Protection_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_Owners_Protection_Act Which is why ATFs National Tracing Center remains paper-based: https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-atf-guns-trace-center-20160728-snap-htmlstory.html https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-atf-guns-trace-center-2...
  - dredmorbius 7y ago
    A similar assertion was made earlier today on Reddit. A few examples of technologies and concepts which have been banned or restricted, to greater or lesser effect: https://old.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/cewumq/opinion_dont_regulate_facial_recognition_ban_it/eu6so9z/ https://old.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/cewumq/opinion_don...
    - bryanrasmussen 7y ago
      wait - so you mean you can go to that site and read what the idea was that was banned!?! please refute my point #1 given this detail - an Idea which can be looked up online has not been banned, it has been disseminated.
vangelis 7y ago
It's impossible to ban , but it's possible to prevent people from implementing and carrying out that idea. There's a difference here.
- quotemstr 7y ago
  Is it? What are you going to do? Burn the machine learning books? Good luck
  - forgottenpass 7y ago
    Murder is illegal, but that doesn't physically stop you from killing anyone either. Banning facial recognition wouldn't prevent you from doing it, it would prevent anyone that doesn't run a crime syndicate from using or selling it.

It is impossible to ban an idea or an algorithm.

dredmorbius 7y ago

Citation requested.

bryanrasmussen 7y ago
You may cite me on this - 1. first of all to ban the idea you will have to be specific enough in describing the idea in a law that can be referenced so that when people think they are encountering the idea they may reference the law to be sure. Any one who can reference that law will be exposed to the idea. 2. ideas are not static expressions, perhaps we can think of them as nodes in a directed graph of all human thought, if you want delete the node you should direct all the nodes with arrows pointing at that node or someone is going to notice hey there are a lot of arrows pointing over here at this node that is gone and come up with the idea all over again by what is implied by the arrows. 3. if we think of ideas instead of how memetics would describe them we have a similar problem to number 2, that idea evolved from other ideas, and it is evolving into other ideas as we speak. Perhaps at some point we will have the technology to get rid of a memetic infection but not yet. And considering how well we've done on getting rid of measels I doubt it. 4. Probably the closest we can come to killing off an idea is the destructions of heresies in the middle ages, for example the Adamite heresy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adamites https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adamites however the ideas still exist as evidenced by the Wikipedia page, just nobody cares enough to embody the idea. So, instead of killing facial recogniton if a similar thing were done with facial recognition that was done with the ideas of the Adamites we should kill a lot of facial recognition researchers and people building facial recognition tools, and then hope that nobody new will care to do any facial recognition stuff (if you get brutal enough that just might be). Making the idea unpopular might work, but I doubt it, because the utility and power the idea promises would be too great a temptation. Do you need a citation on the too great a temptation statement?
- vangelis 7y ago
  Counterpoint, the ATF's gun database. The technology exists, and yet it's not digitized. It's purely a policy issue.
  - bryanrasmussen 7y ago
    what does the ATF's gun database have to do with banning an idea? The database may be used to ban guns, but probably not every gun in existence, and as such it will not do anything about banning the idea that you can shoot metal projectiles out of a small handheld device with a cylinder for shooting the projectile s out of (so as to provide aiming capabilities and speed) in a way that these small handheld devices can be used as effective people killing tools.
    - dredmorbius 7y ago
      The database itself is the idea that's been banned, or at least any computerised form of it. By the the Firearm Owners Protection Act (1986) a/k/a FOPA, 18 U.S.C. 926 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/926 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/926 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_Owners_Protection_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_Owners_Protection_Act Which is why ATFs National Tracing Center remains paper-based: https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-atf-guns-trace-center-20160728-snap-htmlstory.html https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-atf-guns-trace-center-2...
- dredmorbius 7y ago
  A similar assertion was made earlier today on Reddit. A few examples of technologies and concepts which have been banned or restricted, to greater or lesser effect: https://old.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/cewumq/opinion_dont_regulate_facial_recognition_ban_it/eu6so9z/ https://old.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/cewumq/opinion_don...
  - bryanrasmussen 7y ago
    wait - so you mean you can go to that site and read what the idea was that was banned!?! please refute my point #1 given this detail - an Idea which can be looked up online has not been banned, it has been disseminated.

vangelis 7y ago

It's impossible to ban , but it's possible to prevent people from implementing and carrying out that idea. There's a difference here.

quotemstr 7y ago
Is it? What are you going to do? Burn the machine learning books? Good luck
- forgottenpass 7y ago
  Murder is illegal, but that doesn't physically stop you from killing anyone either. Banning facial recognition wouldn't prevent you from doing it, it would prevent anyone that doesn't run a crime syndicate from using or selling it.