4 ms·

you can say the same thing about hypothetical people who assert 2 + 2 = 5. there's nothing cool about it, or people experimenting and starting to doubt that 2 +

you can say the same thing about hypothetical people who assert 2 + 2 = 5. there's nothing cool about it, or people experimenting and starting to doubt that 2 + 2 = 5. nothing would be lost if nobody believed the earth was flat. this is not admirable.

wongarsu 7y ago
But people who believe that earth is flat will always exist, it's just a question of how to deal with them. Letting people doubt and experimentally prove fundamental ideas is healthy (and how many a revolution in physics started). We just have to ensure these people don't get shut in echo chambers.
- technothrasher 7y ago
  Letting people doubt and experimentally prove fundamental ideas is healthy Asking, "How do we know the Earth is round? Can we test it?" is very, very different than asserting, "The Earth is flat and I'll prove it experimentally."
LudwigNagasena 7y ago
But how much is lost when for-profit enterprises curate and censor the most prominent avenues for speech?
vorpalhex 7y ago
There's a difference between scientific engagement and brain washing. Science is always cool. Brain washing not so much.
- brigandish 7y ago
  The trick is to distinguish between the two. The only known way is to allow all points of view to compete, unless you have a better idea? (Which, of course, you are allowed to articulate even though I'm sure there isn't one;)
- Kaveren 7y ago
  It's reasonable to start from a point of "I think the earth is round, but why is this true?" Flat earthers, much like many conspiracy theorists, are generally not interested in logical reasoning, and prefer to invent elaborate explanations to hold on to their delusions. It's unreasonable to start from a position of "all scientists are forced by boogeyman governments to say that the earth is flat", which is not a strawman and something you can in fact see them argue.
gourou 7y ago
If you're interested in the effects of conspiracy theories on society, it is a fascinating watch. You see how people get pulled into the theory, get marginalized by society and how their family ends up becoming the flat earth community (even though they've never met). You also see how hard it is for scientists with overwhelming evidence to convince them, it's a sobering watch.
pdmccormick 7y ago
On the contrary, having an initial spark of curiousity (or even doubt) about 2 + 2 = 5 is a great way of engaging with critical reasoning, mature mathematical thinking, proofs, etc. Given the number of times human civilisation lurked forward because someone revisited earlier assumptions, training more people to think critically and be courageous about their conclusions would, I believe, be a net benefit to us all. Yes, 2 + 2 does not equal 5, but we need more people who can explain and think about _why_, and not simply repeat "just because". If someone cannot debunk a misconception as rudimentary as that, how can we expect their arguments against a flat earth theory to be sound and persuasive?
- russdill 7y ago
  I really don't believe the flat earth phenomenon is about genuine curiosity. An important part of such a conspiracy theory is to generate more and more elaborate reasons why data must be rejected. That's not curiosity.
numakerg 7y ago
I don't think these are the same. If you get 15 marbles, arrange them into groups of 1,2,3,4,5 and give them the proper labels, you can trivially prove that the sum of two groups of 2 equals 4 and not 5. The proofs for round earth are not as trivial. People have varying degrees of skepticism. Some are genuinely curious and are convinced by demonstrations while others are just contrarians. If you've ever heard Eddie Bravo talk, it's clear he doesn't care about understanding what shape the earth is and just likes to spout conspiracies.
addicted 7y ago
Except they are not the same things at all. #1 numbers and math are a very different domain from hard facts, such as the shape of the earth as humans experience it. In fact, you could probably create a number system, or a mathematics where 2+2=5 (simple example would be a number system the same as we have now, but the symbols for 4 and 5 are swapped). There are interesting ideas to be gained in thinking about what numbers mean, and imply based on questioning that. However, once you’ve accepted all the definitions, and the number system, and the rules of the system you’ve accepted necessarily imply 2+2=4 then insisting that 2+2=5 is nonsensical. That’s the level at which the flat earth era are operating.

wongarsu 7y ago

But people who believe that earth is flat will always exist, it's just a question of how to deal with them. Letting people doubt and experimentally prove fundamental ideas is healthy (and how many a revolution in physics started). We just have to ensure these people don't get shut in echo chambers.

technothrasher 7y ago
Letting people doubt and experimentally prove fundamental ideas is healthy Asking, "How do we know the Earth is round? Can we test it?" is very, very different than asserting, "The Earth is flat and I'll prove it experimentally."

LudwigNagasena 7y ago

But how much is lost when for-profit enterprises curate and censor the most prominent avenues for speech?

vorpalhex 7y ago

There's a difference between scientific engagement and brain washing. Science is always cool. Brain washing not so much.

brigandish 7y ago
The trick is to distinguish between the two. The only known way is to allow all points of view to compete, unless you have a better idea? (Which, of course, you are allowed to articulate even though I'm sure there isn't one;)
Kaveren 7y ago
It's reasonable to start from a point of "I think the earth is round, but why is this true?" Flat earthers, much like many conspiracy theorists, are generally not interested in logical reasoning, and prefer to invent elaborate explanations to hold on to their delusions. It's unreasonable to start from a position of "all scientists are forced by boogeyman governments to say that the earth is flat", which is not a strawman and something you can in fact see them argue.

gourou 7y ago

If you're interested in the effects of conspiracy theories on society, it is a fascinating watch. You see how people get pulled into the theory, get marginalized by society and how their family ends up becoming the flat earth community (even though they've never met). You also see how hard it is for scientists with overwhelming evidence to convince them, it's a sobering watch.

pdmccormick 7y ago

On the contrary, having an initial spark of curiousity (or even doubt) about 2 + 2 = 5 is a great way of engaging with critical reasoning, mature mathematical thinking, proofs, etc. Given the number of times human civilisation lurked forward because someone revisited earlier assumptions, training more people to think critically and be courageous about their conclusions would, I believe, be a net benefit to us all. Yes, 2 + 2 does not equal 5, but we need more people who can explain and think about _why_, and not simply repeat "just because". If someone cannot debunk a misconception as rudimentary as that, how can we expect their arguments against a flat earth theory to be sound and persuasive?

russdill 7y ago
I really don't believe the flat earth phenomenon is about genuine curiosity. An important part of such a conspiracy theory is to generate more and more elaborate reasons why data must be rejected. That's not curiosity.

numakerg 7y ago

I don't think these are the same. If you get 15 marbles, arrange them into groups of 1,2,3,4,5 and give them the proper labels, you can trivially prove that the sum of two groups of 2 equals 4 and not 5. The proofs for round earth are not as trivial. People have varying degrees of skepticism. Some are genuinely curious and are convinced by demonstrations while others are just contrarians. If you've ever heard Eddie Bravo talk, it's clear he doesn't care about understanding what shape the earth is and just likes to spout conspiracies.

addicted 7y ago

Except they are not the same things at all. #1 numbers and math are a very different domain from hard facts, such as the shape of the earth as humans experience it. In fact, you could probably create a number system, or a mathematics where 2+2=5 (simple example would be a number system the same as we have now, but the symbols for 4 and 5 are swapped). There are interesting ideas to be gained in thinking about what numbers mean, and imply based on questioning that. However, once you’ve accepted all the definitions, and the number system, and the rules of the system you’ve accepted necessarily imply 2+2=4 then insisting that 2+2=5 is nonsensical. That’s the level at which the flat earth era are operating.