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I've got to be honest here, it's infuriating to see the extremely basic moral/social principles from the Bible held up on some kind of pedestal like they're a u

I've got to be honest here, it's infuriating to see the extremely basic moral/social principles from the Bible held up on some kind of pedestal like they're a unique or difficult to come by idea. As an atheist I try to be a good person because it is something I innately want to do, not because it was a revelation I had in Bible study. The Bible did not invent "being nice to other people"

xamuel 7y ago
Your idea of what's a good person is based on what the world tells you is a good person. I, too, am tempted to think of myself as being inherently good, but if I were born hundreds of years ago, would I really have been so inherently good as to realize how wrong it is to (say) suppress women, when the culture all around me normalized doing so? My temptation is to think "I'm better than that, I wouldn't suppress women", but statistically speaking, almost no-one actually was better-than-that! Trying to be a good person without the guidance of the Holy Spirit is futile. "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)
- Fauntleroy 7y ago
  "Not suppressing women" is a really odd issue to bring into the conversation when Christianity is involved.
  - xamuel 7y ago
    Are you suggesting I should do a better job of cherry-picking things? I'm not trying to "trick" people with fake cherry-picked Christianity, we're all smarter than that here. It was an example that what's deemed "good" by the world changes from decade to decade. "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain fell, the torrents raged, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because its foundation was on the rock." (Matthew 7:24-25)
- germinalphrase 7y ago
  I was raised Catholic though I have intentionally distanced myself from the church as an adult. There are active aspects to the church’s teachings that our larger society would likely see as negative, if not outright wrong. Your suggestion of female suppression is a good example.
- em-bee 7y ago
  while you could not have changed the social order, you could have treated women with more respect than was the norm, especially your own wife. allowed your daughters to learn what they were interested in instead of forcing them into their assigned roles. these exceptions existed, and you could have been one of them.
efa 7y ago
Judeo-Christian values are the basis of the west's moral code. It's so ingrained you may think it's innate. But it's not hard to impress a different set of values if you preach them from birth. People years ago who believed in racial prejudice were not born bad. They believe what they were taught by society. Some were able to overcome this teaching but for the vast majority they just considered these beliefs as facts. That's why its ridiculous to judge a historic figure based on our current moral code.
WkndTriathlete 7y ago
You're conflating your viewpoint and choice to be nice to people with atheistic philosophy in general. Imagine the following scenario: alien visitors show up and show the human race that they can cure malaria, cancer, heart disease, and addiction, and that all we have to do in return is sacrifice 100 people worldwide to supply the aliens with subjects for (lethal) medical experimentation to enable this to happen. Atheist philosophy would naturally have to consider the offer, whereas Christian philosophy would immediately reject it. I think if you really sat down and thought about it you would come up with other moral/ethical scenarios that would land in your personal gray area that would be soundly rejected by Christianity.
- dunnevens 7y ago
  Churches have sacrificed people for much less. Given up their principles for not much in return. This is true in the present day. This has been true for the past 2000 years. In your hypothetical, the Christians would be just as eager for the benefits as anyone else. Let's not pretend Christians, as a group, are somehow more moral than atheists or anyone else. History does not support that contention.
tathougies 7y ago
> The Bible did not invent "being nice to other people" Yes, it kinda did, at least in Europe. But honestly, as someone coming from a Christian family from India, and seeing that christianity in India plays an outsized role (as in Indian Christians, not foreigners) in social services despite its status as a minority religion, I think it's safe to say that Christianity is uniquely into helping others. A few of our relatives were even jailed for 'marxism' for daring to think the poor ought to be treated with dignity.

xamuel 7y ago

Your idea of what's a good person is based on what the world tells you is a good person. I, too, am tempted to think of myself as being inherently good, but if I were born hundreds of years ago, would I really have been so inherently good as to realize how wrong it is to (say) suppress women, when the culture all around me normalized doing so? My temptation is to think "I'm better than that, I wouldn't suppress women", but statistically speaking, almost no-one actually was better-than-that! Trying to be a good person without the guidance of the Holy Spirit is futile. "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)

Fauntleroy 7y ago
"Not suppressing women" is a really odd issue to bring into the conversation when Christianity is involved.
- xamuel 7y ago
  Are you suggesting I should do a better job of cherry-picking things? I'm not trying to "trick" people with fake cherry-picked Christianity, we're all smarter than that here. It was an example that what's deemed "good" by the world changes from decade to decade. "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain fell, the torrents raged, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because its foundation was on the rock." (Matthew 7:24-25)
germinalphrase 7y ago
I was raised Catholic though I have intentionally distanced myself from the church as an adult. There are active aspects to the church’s teachings that our larger society would likely see as negative, if not outright wrong. Your suggestion of female suppression is a good example.
em-bee 7y ago
while you could not have changed the social order, you could have treated women with more respect than was the norm, especially your own wife. allowed your daughters to learn what they were interested in instead of forcing them into their assigned roles. these exceptions existed, and you could have been one of them.

efa 7y ago

Judeo-Christian values are the basis of the west's moral code. It's so ingrained you may think it's innate. But it's not hard to impress a different set of values if you preach them from birth. People years ago who believed in racial prejudice were not born bad. They believe what they were taught by society. Some were able to overcome this teaching but for the vast majority they just considered these beliefs as facts. That's why its ridiculous to judge a historic figure based on our current moral code.

WkndTriathlete 7y ago

You're conflating your viewpoint and choice to be nice to people with atheistic philosophy in general. Imagine the following scenario: alien visitors show up and show the human race that they can cure malaria, cancer, heart disease, and addiction, and that all we have to do in return is sacrifice 100 people worldwide to supply the aliens with subjects for (lethal) medical experimentation to enable this to happen. Atheist philosophy would naturally have to consider the offer, whereas Christian philosophy would immediately reject it. I think if you really sat down and thought about it you would come up with other moral/ethical scenarios that would land in your personal gray area that would be soundly rejected by Christianity.

dunnevens 7y ago
Churches have sacrificed people for much less. Given up their principles for not much in return. This is true in the present day. This has been true for the past 2000 years. In your hypothetical, the Christians would be just as eager for the benefits as anyone else. Let's not pretend Christians, as a group, are somehow more moral than atheists or anyone else. History does not support that contention.

tathougies 7y ago

> The Bible did not invent "being nice to other people" Yes, it kinda did, at least in Europe. But honestly, as someone coming from a Christian family from India, and seeing that christianity in India plays an outsized role (as in Indian Christians, not foreigners) in social services despite its status as a minority religion, I think it's safe to say that Christianity is uniquely into helping others. A few of our relatives were even jailed for 'marxism' for daring to think the poor ought to be treated with dignity.